Museum or Laboratory?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Museum or Laboratory?

Postby origami_itto on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:16 am

During his Zoom last week Sifu Ray shared a story about Master Wai Lun Choi.

He said he was receiving a lesson and Master Choi told him to start doing a particular movement differently than he remembered. He asked him why it was different than what he previously showed him and Master Choi replied "You don't have a black and white TV, do you?"

The implication being that the new method represents an improved understanding and technology compared to the previous version when considered for a particular purpose.

I have never met Master Choi myself but I've spoken to several of his direct students and they all agree that he has an uncannily superior sense of body awareness and in particular the effects of posture and movement on breath. When he tweaks something it's generally informed by that awareness and his experimentation so the students tend to accept it immediately.

However, he explains what the tweak does and encourages students to experiment and verify for themselves because that's what he's done to get where he is. He has a unique and powerful expression all his own the efficacy of which cannot be denied.

This is similar to T. T. Liang's views, and a bit like what Bruce Lee said, learn from many teachers, take what's useful for you, leave what's not. Listen to your teacher, but verify what you're taught.

Sifu Alex Dong was born into a famous and traditional lineage. What I'm getting from him has not been filtered through Cheng Man Ching and includes material from Wu (hao) style, so in many ways it's a much different tradition and transmission than the T. T. Liang taijiquan that forms my main base. The modifications that Cheng Man Ching made to the postures he retained when composing the short form, many of which T. T. Liang kept in his long form, are fairly obvious, as well as are some changes the Dong lineage masters have made on their own. Being aware of the changes, I can experiment with the differences and compare my own understanding of their fitness for particular purposes.

Even Alex today is still making tweaks and changes to the forms he's teaching students. At a gathering of students from five places around the country, they'll each do their forms a slightly different way. It looks a bit cacophonous at times, but the skills they present in push hands are solid.

Other teachers take different approaches. Questioning the information is discouraged. Making changes is absolutely forbidden. "Don't connect the dots just do the exercises" "If changes were needed the ancestors would have already implemented them"

The message seems to be that at some point the system was perfected, so any deviation from that precise choreography or method is a degeneration that no person now living or yet to be born is qualified to implement.

The subtext is that the student can never hope to reach the master.

It's a much different mindset from, say, a professional fight trainer in the West. The trainer knows that he can't do what he's prepping his fighter to do, and he uses his personal experience and the latest methods informed by research and science to create a fighter that exceeds his own ability. His ego isn't threatened by the student's skill, but is fulfilled by it.

Over the last 23 years I've participated in classes with a handful of teachers, watched thousands of hours of videos, read volume upon volume of famous master's opinions and teachings on the art and practice and talked to hundreds of exponents.

I have only heard one teacher (and his disciples) say "I want my students to be better than me", and that's T. T. Liang. "Green comes from blue"

Which isn't to say that others don't think it or say it, just that I haven't heard it.

There's also the nuance of translation of cultural attitudes. There's the official line and what is done, i.e. Yang Cheng Fu making his changes and saying "if changes were needed the ancestors would have done it" for example. Westerners tend to hold their idealized fetishization of cultural attitudes without a firm understanding of the context that makes them actually workable.

So tell me, Fistians, how do you approach it?

Do you question your teacher? Do you encourage your students to question you? Have you ever found a time where your teacher appeared to be wrong? Are you trying to make your students better than you?
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby everything on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:55 am

I guess I have two opposite reactions.

1. I don't believe anyone will reach what I've been calling a "golden generation" of IMA masters again. It's because of many factors that probably deserve its own thread. In that sense it's probably hard to improve upon the instructions they passed down. The more I learn, the more it seems clear they were being as clear as possible, and it's our lack of understanding that prevents us from realizing that. So unfortunately we invent really bad hypotheses instead. But I guess that's needed. We need the not quite right idea, follow that, then improve it. Hopefully we catch on after a while.

2. But is there "technology" beyond all of that that could help individuals? Think so, yes. In both the outer forms, the internal "engine", and trying to combine them. There is more good information, more video, seemingly more teachers. But you have to feel/have/cultivate the skill in your own body. Especially things inside your body that can't be seen. You may need to explore until you find the right teacher who can help you. It won't be someone on that generation's level, but it certainly seems very possible to find someone more advanced to help us.
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby origami_itto on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:06 am

I consider all of this stuff technology. prayer, meditation, martial arts methods...

Magic is just technology we don't understand yet.
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby greytowhite on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:31 am

A lot of the "golden generation" had esoteric empowerments and transmissions - until you do what they did and have someone pour a higher level into you it is much more difficult to achieve.
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby Quigga on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:43 am

The self enlightened ones would like to disagree
Work as much as you can, reach as high as you can
Blessings received or not
They may even be received without any physical personal contact
When ready, it comes

To the op
I wonder what the ancients would say if they read your slacking-off words :D
Certainly to just chill a bit more
All's good :-)
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby Bao on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:56 am

Of course you should question your teacher. Understanding of TJQ or any similar art is based on the understanding of a few basic principles: how to do it, how to use them and how to practice them. But it's also about self-knowledge, understanding yourself and how you interact with the world around you. No teacher can jump inside of your own skin and tell you what to feel and how. Just repeating movements and copy doesn't teach you how to feel your tai chi and yourself.

A student needs to be sincere and dedicated, a teacher should guide. A student should try to understand, but the student has responsibility for himself only. If a student is smart, he keeps a good relationship with his teacher so the teacher will continue to teach.

I summed up the 6 points I believe are important as a student here: "On the Correct Attitude For Learning and Mastering Tai Chi Chuan"

Determination – Set a clear goal and work towards it
Focus – keep attention on what you are doing and mind the details
Responsibility – Don’t blame your teacher when you suck
Creativity – Independent thinking & a little craziness doesn’t hurt
Endurance – Keep the spirit & enjoy the boredom
Humor and self distance – Be able to laugh at yourself… Otherwise everyone else will…
Passion – Love what you do or quit

You really need creativity, or to make your Tai Chi practice your own laboratory. I don't believe you can come to understand it in any other way.

Creativity is a concept that lies close to responsibility. I know what you ask yourself now or would like to ask me: Oh, why? Because learning Tai Chi and come to understand what it is, well, this is a bit like putting together a puzzle where there’s a whole lot of pieces missing. Tai Chi is a cultural phenomenon, something that has grown for centuries to become what it is today. It’s from another culture and another history. The terminology and concepts come from another kind of thinking, often abstract, often very different from ours. Thus, to understand Tai Chi, and to develop it as your own property, of your own knowledge, you really need a creative approach. You need to turn around the puzzle pieces, examine them from different directions. You need to put all of the pieces together to form a comprehensible picture. And where pieces are missing, you need to create them by yourself to make the pieces match together. It’s quite a hard work, both mentally and physically to learn how to understand the art. But it’s also a lot of fun and a highly creative process.


I really, really hate the common follow-and-repeat-don't-think type of teaching in Tai Chi. Also from the blog:

"as it [Tai Chi] is usually practiced and taught today, it has also inherited the worst of the common Chinese teaching system.

Frankly and completely honestly said – the Chinese teaching and learning system today, as it is seen in schools and institutions ... is based on learning but not on thinking. Everything is about doing what the teachers do and listen to what a teacher says, not about creating. This is all too present in the whole Chinese society and whenever it comes to teaching and learning."


So the way we mostly see Tai Chi being taught today is a "Chinese problem". It doesn't need to be our problem.
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby everything on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:57 am

greytowhite wrote:A lot of the "golden generation" had esoteric empowerments and transmissions - until you do what they did and have someone pour a higher level into you it is much more difficult to achieve.


That's a problem because if various conditions were right for that generation to be at the peak, then for many reasons the state of the arts declined in subsequent generations, who will "pour that level / transmission" to us? Perhaps some aspects could be lost forever.

To make a bad analogy, we probably will never have Mozart and Beethoven again, despite the fact that we can have many musical geniuses come along now and in the future. I can barely play punk rock, but hey, I agree we can all make progress. We have to keep going. DIY. I think I probably learn a lot just from our rants here (then practicing after that).
Last edited by everything on Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby Appledog on Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:39 pm

origami_itto wrote:So tell me, Fistians, how do you approach it?


My teacher comments on this frequently. It is a museum until it becomes a laboratory. The student must aim to emulate the teacher and not change anything for a very long time. Only once they finally understand it can they make changes. But it is a very difficult thing to know when this time comes, you must be very careful with your pride. Sometimes a change that makes sense can have negative consequences. That's why practice and understanding (going through a 'Museum stage') is important. To give you the knowledge and skill you need to make changes if you need to.

everything wrote:
greytowhite wrote:A lot of the "golden generation" had esoteric empowerments and transmissions - until you do what they did and have someone pour a higher level into you it is much more difficult to achieve.


That's a problem because if various conditions were right for that generation to be at the peak, then for many reasons the state of the arts declined in subsequent generations, who will "pour that level / transmission" to us? Perhaps some aspects could be lost forever.


You could ask me. But I have found that in most cases the problem is that the teacher has somehow decided the student is not ready to be taught beyond a certain level (for whatever reason). This is so much more common than you think. Masters test people before they teach them important skills. Sometimes masters will shape their teaching to help you get on the right track first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZUCLzmqtAs
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:14 pm

Appledog wrote:
origami_itto wrote:So tell me, Fistians, how do you approach it?


My teacher comments on this frequently. It is a museum until it becomes a laboratory. The student must aim to emulate the teacher and not change anything for a very long time. Only once they finally understand it can they make changes. But it is a very difficult thing to know when this time comes, you must be very careful with your pride. Sometimes a change that makes sense can have negative consequences. That's why practice and understanding (going through a 'Museum stage') is important. To give you the knowledge and skill you need to make changes if you need to.

everything wrote:
greytowhite wrote:A lot of the "golden generation" had esoteric empowerments and transmissions - until you do what they did and have someone pour a higher level into you it is much more difficult to achieve.


That's a problem because if various conditions were right for that generation to be at the peak, then for many reasons the state of the arts declined in subsequent generations, who will "pour that level / transmission" to us? Perhaps some aspects could be lost forever.


You could ask me. But I have found that in most cases the problem is that the teacher has somehow decided the student is not ready to be taught beyond a certain level (for whatever reason). This is so much more common than you think. Masters test people before they teach them important skills. Sometimes masters will shape their teaching to help you get on the right track first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZUCLzmqtAs

So, are you an IMA master? Would we recognize you as such by your real world name? With all due respect, Appledog doesn't ring any bells for me, but I am always open to receiving a higher level transmission of these arts than I already now have from anyone who is capable of doing so. :)
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby Appledog on Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:46 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
everything wrote:
greytowhite wrote:A lot of the "golden generation" had esoteric empowerments and transmissions - until you do what they did and have someone pour a higher level into you it is much more difficult to achieve.


That's a problem because if various conditions were right for that generation to be at the peak, then for many reasons the state of the arts declined in subsequent generations, who will "pour that level / transmission" to us? Perhaps some aspects could be lost forever.


Appledog wrote:You could ask me. But I have found that in most cases the problem is that the teacher has somehow decided the student is not ready to be taught beyond a certain level (for whatever reason). This is so much more common than you think. Masters test people before they teach them important skills. Sometimes masters will shape their teaching to help you get on the right track first. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZUCLzmqtAs


So, are you an IMA master? Would we recognize you as such by your real world name? With all due respect, Appledog doesn't ring any bells for me, but I am always open to receiving a higher level transmission of these arts than I already now have from anyone who is capable of doing so. :)


Joking aside, and on topic, this is the danger which we all feel. If a student has not gone through the museum stage and starts teaching (the presumption being, that teaching incorrectly is akin to making unauthorized or harmful changes to an art) that the person who is being taught is getting a raw deal, and no one wants a raw deal.

I get that. But the topic here is not just about the master but the student. As e. said, "until you (have done) what they did..."". If the student is not ready the master cannot pour in the next level.

So why not ask. Maybe you won't get the answer you expected, but there's no harm in talking with people and sharing knowledge. That's why, I presume, we are here :)
Last edited by Appledog on Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby origami_itto on Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:56 pm

Appledog wrote:
So why not ask. Maybe you won't get the answer you expected, but there's no harm in talking with people and sharing knowledge. That's why, I presume, we are here :)


I thought it was to shit on each other and be pedantic, but I could be mistaken...
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby everything on Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:11 pm

isn't that what the internet and all social media are for? that, or cat videos or weird memes/fads? we could use some "Jimmy" responses right about now.
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby Michael Babin on Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:31 pm

Without a solid foundation, any structure will prove shoddy sooner or later especially in extreme weather or during an earthquake. On the other hand, anyone can learn to build a structure if they work at it hard enough and long enough... providing that they have some good instruction and then gain experience at doing so. That necessitates possessing the necessary tools as well as having all the materials and that those materials are of a certain quality.

Analogies aside, this is an important issue as too many taiji teachers [in my experience after meeting and training with Yang-style teachers for more than 45 years] are content to blindly pass along what they have been told. Almost as bad are the teachers who learn for a year or two each from a variety of sources and prematurely create their own approach and arrogantly say or imply that they have improved the style.

Like many of the other issues faced in trying to be an ethical teacher; there aren't any easy answers except to be honest with anyone you teach about your own training history, abilities and interests.
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby greytowhite on Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:01 pm

How does one pass on the energetic lineage? Here is one way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xDFUPaRmsU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW85RwlQ1ro
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Re: Museum or Laboratory?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:35 pm

He drew that last one back a lot more than 3 inches
If your relaxed you can do that in your first year of training
If you have a good foundation you can take things from anywhere
Wong Fei Hungs two students did both
One they called the old square rule because he never changed anything
The other one changed everthing
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