Back Basics

[GrahamB]

Connection.

[Bhassler]

Note she stands with locked knees most of the time
There lies the difference
Now I’m going to ask another question
Please don’t insist I answer it
What do you think the main reason we centre the coccyx from a tai chi point of view

Can't really answer unless you can show or explain what you mean by "centre the coccyx." Centering may not mean the same as tucking, and keeping the behind, behind (as Gokhale puts it) may not involve arching or creating any tension in the lower back. I'd take it further and say that "a tai chi point of view" can vary pretty dramatically depending on style and lineage, and multiple versions can be true or correct at the same time. So, a little more specificity overall might elicit a more interesting conversation. Or, it might not...

[wayne hansen]

I say centre because tuck implies over doing it
Wing Chun tuck
To get it right feel at what point the quads start to lift then go back

[origami_itto]

I say centre because tuck implies over doing it
Wing Chun tuck
To get it right feel at what point the quads start to lift then go back

I have always been instructed to "tai gung" aka sit your ass in a chair. Sit on the barstool.

Tucking has always pretty clearly been defined as a mistake.

[everything]

Maybe we should discuss politics or religion? Nah, have no idea. Maybe that jiu jitsu posture is a different “closed” use case with the specific closed guard pulling vs standing more “open play” use cases?

[LaoDan]

Chimps don’t have long tails like the TED talk presenter may be referring to, but chimps (our closest primate relatives) do not walk with their rears jutting out.

I doubt that humans should either (despite the images she presents showing the “J-spine” or “behind-behind” in “non-industrial populations”). As Wayne noted, she (and her examples) tend to stand with locked knees. At least for TJQ, the locked knees and stuck-out rear should probably not be used.

[windwalker]

Might help to understand why some lines of taiji talk of flattening the back in order to bring into alignment whats called a "zero moment point"

part of the way this is done , involves slightly tucking the sacrum

why its done...depends on theories used

It specifies the point with respect to which dynamic reaction force at the contact of the foot with the ground does not produce any moment in the horizontal direction, i.e. the point where the total of horizontal inertia and gravity forces equals 0 (zero). The concept assumes the contact area is planar and has sufficiently high friction to keep the feet from sliding.

Centroidal moment pivot (CMP). The CMP is the point where the ground reaction force would have to act to keep the horizontal component of the whole-body angular momentum constant. When the moment about the center of mass(CM) is zero (B), the CMP coincides with the center of pressure (CP).

However, when the CM moment is non-zero (A), the extent of separation between the CMP and CP is equal to the magnitude of the horizontal component of moment about the CM, divided by the normal component of the ground reaction force.

https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/art ... ing#sec-24


Within some lines of taiji there are inner and outer alignment points 3 inner / 3 outer. That must be identified opened giving one the ability to understand how to harmonize them and use this harmony directly.

[Appledog]

What do you think the main reason we centre the coccyx from a tai chi point of view

Might help to understand why some lines of taiji talk of flattening the back in order to bring into alignment whats called a "zero moment point"

part of the way this is done , involves slightly tucking the sacrum

why its done...depends on theories used

Exactly. In other words, for the same reason people are instructed in reverse breathing. Versus, of course, 'setting' the postures. If you stand in san ti shou or single whip or whatever for 1000 hours you will never worry about 'centering the coccyx' ever again. Centering the coccyx or tucking it (ex. wing chun vs chen style) has specific meanings and purposes but the only way to know is by 'fixing' the form. You're told about it because of the principle fake it till you make it. But if you do it wrong it can cause harm, you know, it has to be said, but I wouldn't worry too much about it, just listen to your body.

When your teacher says your stance is good it is like when mother was brushing sasuke's hair. Trust me it's worth it.

[origami_itto]

Well, just to play devil's advocate - there are also people I respect who have very valid martial reasons for tucking their butts. One example I saw recently was Henry Akins. I've tried what he's showing and it works exactly as advertised - your posture is stronger with your butt tucked. Who knows what's 'correct' anymore!

In the same line of comparison, I have a gracie BJJ instructional video on the mount that spends a lot of time talking about how important it is to keep the head up and spine straight. Sitting on the barstool to "tuck" the hips in conjunction with the head held as if suspended from above gets that stretch and springiness in the spine.

[Quigga]

Many changes required at once to have claimed at one point - high achievement
Vertebrae connected to fascia same way as joints
Snake becomes flying dragon
Lifting and sinking are equally contained parts in motion
Same as heavy and light
That's why we say to just let go, move natural, observe, Sung
Yet we have to apply the accumulated force in various ways to make it bouncy and lively
It includes learning to differentiate Yin Yang, then calmly witnessing their changes in both motion and stillness
Leading to increased facility in all areas
Yet those with impure intentions will surely perish


Back to back
Joints free to move 360° in terms of Jin distribution through training Sung and releasing
Twisting through the joints while pulling
It's reeling twisting turning silk all at the same time that leads to good development
Vertebrae earbetreV
Opens like a fan in all directions while being sunk
Hidden lotus pure emergence

[Giles]

In my view, neither have a hollow back (or lordose as it's properly called) in the lumbar vertebrae, nor actively tuck. The more you can functionally relax/release in this part of the body, the more your lumbar vertebrae, sacrum and coccyx will start to align themselves with gravity and open up. I sometimes call this 'letting the bucket hang' (as in a well shaft, on a very slightly elastic rope). This creates good connections downwards to the feet and upwards to the head and the hands. Or expressed differently, opens the path from the feet to the hands etc.

Important to stress: this isn't about adopting a new posture, in the sense of a new position now to be held. Even if such a 'posture' can be a move in the right direction. Instead, it brings the alignment and mobility of the lower back, pelvis and hips into a kind of 'golden zone' where these parts of the body can constantly adjust (themselves) to external changes. These changes can be in the centimetre or even millimetre range, and they start to happen spontaneously. Similar to the way you constantly make small adjustments with your pelvis when riding/steering a bike, always remaining in balance - you don't steer or balance a bike with your hands, that's just an extra stabilization which you can often dispense with.
So not posture, but more like two opposite walls in a small room (hollow back, tucked pelvis), in between which you can constantly be moving and playing. Without bumping into the walls.