Back Basics

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Back Basics

Postby origami_itto on Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:22 am

After being exposed to a couple of different traditions I'm starting to think that maybe not everybody does Taijiquan the exact same way.
Particularly regarding the back. In the classics we're told that the qi sticks to the back and to pluck up the back and sink the chest, but the actual practice seems to vary widely.
So two questions, three I guess.
How do you understand and apply raising the back and sinking the chest and the qi sticking to the back?
How do you use the back in your practice and movement?
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Re: Back Basics

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:47 am

"After being exposed to a couple of different traditions I'm starting to think that maybe not everybody does Taijiquan the exact same way. "

NO WAY!

(We talk about raising the back at the end of my most recent podcast with Arlene Faulk).
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Re: Back Basics

Postby everything on Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:24 am

1. can’t feel Qi sticking to back
2. think my thoracic mobility isn’t great.

Maybe those two go together not sure
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Re: Back Basics

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:03 am

origami_itto wrote:How do you understand and apply raising the back and sinking the chest and the qi sticking to the back?[


They are two different things. The four character phrase "raise/pluck back, sink/hollow chest" or "ba bei, han xiong " is a very old phrase. It dates back to old manuals of Daoist practice. Around 500 ad. if I remember correctly.

My teacher meant that the interpretation as a static posture is a mistake, and in fact what is meant is spinal movement.

The problem with "qi" is that it can mean different things according to who meant what.

"Qi" can sometimes mean breath and it can sometimes mean movement. So if we interpret qi as movement "qi sticks to the back" means that all movement should be generated though the back.

How do you use the back in your practice and movement?


I use all of my back. I use the whole spine all of the time in every movement when I practice my tai chi: to press and release the (lower) dantian/belly, to open up and close the lower ribs, and I always use my scapula to move my arms.
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Re: Back Basics

Postby robert on Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:31 am

origami_itto wrote:How do you understand and apply raising the back and sinking the chest and the qi sticking to the back?

Sinking or containing the chest and raising the back refer to the front and back of the rib cage. If you think of the rib cage as a ball, if you mark the front and back of a ball and rotate the front down slightly, the back of the ball rotates up correspondingly. Sinking or containing the chest is a body requirement and is usually discussed with other requirements, like raising the top of the head, relaxing the waist, and sinking the shoulders. If you do all these correctly, in time, you'll develop a connection throughout the spine - qi adheres to back. This is part of peng jin in the torso.

origami_itto wrote:How do you use the back in your practice and movement?

Chinese use the term yao (腰) and this is often translated as waist, but it also refers specifically to the lumbar spine. It's written that the yao is the ruler or commander.
Last edited by robert on Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Back Basics

Postby wiesiek on Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:41 am

..."How do you understand and apply raising the back and sinking the chest and the qi sticking to the back?
How do you use the back in your practice and movement?..."

I use the breath and relaxed spinal vertebrae,
doin` it in unisono with external movement,- allow wave of qi/energy -forms and travels up thru the spine .
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Re: Back Basics

Postby windwalker on Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:09 pm

taiji is round / spherical

If one considers a spherical shape made by the body/mind interaction

It is one way to control where the center of the sphere is, either inside or outside the body...
when where the center is understood, controlled and used directly...

Tends to produce very interesting results :)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Back Basics

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:21 pm

I prefer hollow the chest open the back
Bao is right about the scapular
I would go further and say they are the arms
I see the arms as an enviroment that starts at the spine and includes the scapular and finnishes at the fingertips
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Re: Back Basics

Postby origami_itto on Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:20 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I prefer hollow the chest open the back
Bao is right about the scapular
I would go further and say they are the arms
I see the arms as an enviroment that starts at the spine and includes the scapular and finnishes at the fingertips


This tracks with my understanding.
Last edited by origami_itto on Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Back Basics

Postby everything on Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:05 am

wiesiek wrote:..."How do you understand and apply raising the back and sinking the chest and the qi sticking to the back?
How do you use the back in your practice and movement?..."

I use the breath and relaxed spinal vertebrae,
doin` it in unisono with external movement,- allow wave of qi/energy -forms and travels up thru the spine .


Ok I was wrong or I corrected my error somewhat.

Think my upper back is a little tense and less mobile. Harder to song. The “signal” is weak and slow, and I have to concentrate. Energy comes up the spine, goes to arms from between shoulder blades. As far as the hydraulic feeling I think the “pump” has to be stronger, the “pressure” higher, more “fluid”, channels more open. Yi leading qi immediate and easy. Will work on it

Edit: tried it with no movement. Just breath and energy. The movement tips make sense. Ironically I just pulled something in my back and now I can really feel the connection to arms.
Last edited by everything on Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Back Basics

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:30 am

If humans still had tails, and you are doing Tai Chi, is your tail out behind you or tucked under your bum?

Idea comes from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1luKAS_Xcg
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Re: Back Basics

Postby Bhassler on Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:38 am

GrahamB wrote:If humans still had tails, and you are doing Tai Chi, is your tail out behind you or tucked under your bum?

Idea comes from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1luKAS_Xcg


There you go again, Graham, breaking the hearts and minds of innocent taiji people. Well, maybe the ones who both want to tuck their butts under and who also think anatomy is real and relevant to taiji. If it's all about energy, anyone can do anything they want, of course, with no way to test weather it's working or not. Gokhale is great, and having the tail out behind is great imagery. For those who want to get more nerdier, then we actually do have a bit of a tail left (the coccyx), and it connects to pelvic floor muscles, which (I believe) are pretty important for so-called internal power and initiating our magical spinal waves of doom.
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Re: Back Basics

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:47 am

Well, just to play devil's advocate - there are also people I respect who have very valid martial reasons for tucking their butts. One example I saw recently was Henry Akins. I've tried what he's showing and it works exactly as advertised - your posture is stronger with your butt tucked. Who knows what's 'correct' anymore! ;D ;D ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLcbTm3pNf4

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Re: Back Basics

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:32 pm

Note she stands with locked knees most of the time
There lies the difference
Now I’m going to ask another question
Please don’t insist I answer it
What do you think the main reason we centre the coccyx from a tai chi point of view
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Re: Back Basics

Postby origami_itto on Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:47 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Note she stands with locked knees most of the time
There lies the difference
Now I’m going to ask another question
Please don’t insist I answer it
What do you think the main reason we centre the coccyx from a tai chi point of view


Well I always use it to help stretch the spine and get better force transfer into the legs

It's like sitting the wrist and shoulder, but for the pelvis. It connects upper and lower.
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