Talk some shen into me

[everything]

yikes that sound rough, lol. but it makes me think of all this "tendon" strength talk as not really applying in these sorts of injury cases. only way to make my knee area strong is if the muscles are strong. they have to overcompensate for some other soft tissue structural weaknesses. forget about MA or sports. I want to be able to walk and run well and carry things that are heavier than groceries from point a to point b, all pain free.

[wayne hansen]

Charlie
I never trained with or met Huang
I left Sydney in 88 just before he came
James Tiong who was one of his indoor students trained with me
Tony in the first clip attended my classes on a regular basis along with Phil Mills who is in many of the clips of Huangs trip to Aus
I knew Huangs main teacher in Sydney Joseph Mack who I suggested Tony switch to from Earl Montague
Some of my students trained with PK. TW and KWJ after I retreated to the hills but still came to visit me on the farm
I am not mixing up the books
I have seen photos of Huang doing the 5 from the book of some web site in recent times
The original order followed CMC order of development
First relax the 3 joints of the arms. Number 2 as it is done now
Then relax the 3 joints of the legs. 3
Then relax the 3 joints of the waist. 1
I do older sets which I think Huang developed these from
Huang developed many of his own forms and I think it’s sad they are not being preserved by many of his students
Short pole
Long pole
Walking stick
Spear
Broadsword
Straight sword
SanShou
The reason I so often mention the original order is I think people should know why he changed them when and where
Why people do or don’t do his entire system
Tony Ward first learnt the 5 in my class well over 40 years ago
I have students who have been doing them daily longer than that
They also do the tien kan,24 Wu noi gung,grandmaster chocks set,yang noi gung and I chuan set
None better or worse
I think Huangs set is brilliant I have my own theories why he changed the order and way they are done which I keep to myself and some advanced students
I hope this helps

[wayne hansen]

Ito when I started training I had knees I had destroyed playing both Rugby League and Rugby Union
Correct training revived them

[charlie_cambridge]

Thanks Wayne,

Very helpful. My understanding from PK is that Huang favored/more or less substituted the walking stick form for sword in his later years because not very practical to walk around with swords anymore, but walking stick wouldn't raise any eyebrows. I am aware (which means so are 100+ students more senior than me also are) that PK took out many exercises (including some on list below) and also kept some not on the list below.

Charlie
I never trained with or met Huang
I left Sydney in 88 just before he came
James Tiong who was one of his indoor students trained with me
Tony in the first clip attended my classes on a regular basis along with Phil Mills who is in many of the clips of Huangs trip to Aus
I knew Huangs main teacher in Sydney Joseph Mack who I suggested Tony switch to from Earl Montague
Some of my students trained with PK. TW and KWJ after I retreated to the hills but still came to visit me on the farm
I am not mixing up the books
I have seen photos of Huang doing the 5 from the book of some web site in recent times
The original order followed CMC order of development
First relax the 3 joints of the arms. Number 2 as it is done now
Then relax the 3 joints of the legs. 3
Then relax the 3 joints of the waist. 1
I do older sets which I think Huang developed these from
Huang developed many of his own forms and I think it’s sad they are not being preserved by many of his students
Short pole
Long pole
Walking stick
Spear
Broadsword
Straight sword
SanShou
The reason I so often mention the original order is I think people should know why he changed them when and where
Why people do or don’t do his entire system
Tony Ward first learnt the 5 in my class well over 40 years ago
I have students who have been doing them daily longer than that
They also do the tien kan,24 Wu noi gung,grandmaster chocks set,yang noi gung and I chuan set
None better or worse
I think Huangs set is brilliant I have my own theories why he changed the order and way they are done which I keep to myself and some advanced students
I hope this helps

[wayne hansen]

The long pole and walking stick are just variations of the short pole and we’re added much later

[origami_itto]

Ito when I started training I had knees I had destroyed playing both Rugby League and Rugby Union
Correct training revived them

When I first started I could barely bend over enough to touch my knees, now I can punch the floor with both hands and both legs straight. I'm in far better shape at 46 than I was at 23.

My knees WERE doing pretty well up till that blue belt decided to sweep one right across the side of the joint in an EXHIBITION match for the gym. Then it just comes down to leverage and the tensile strength of a ligament. Not a thing in the world you can do to make it strong enough to resist that.
They said the replacement is just as strong as the original, if not stronger.

yikes that sound rough, lol. but it makes me think of all this "tendon" strength talk as not really applying in these sorts of injury cases. only way to make my knee area strong is if the muscles are strong. they have to overcompensate for some other soft tissue structural weaknesses. forget about MA or sports. I want to be able to walk and run well and carry things that are heavier than groceries from point a to point b, all pain free.

Well yes the knee needs to be strong. The ACL is a ligament, fastening bone to bone, tendons attach bone to muscle.

Ligaments just stabilize they don't get exposed to the same kind of forces as tendons generally. They are both difficult to strengthen. The slow relaxed movement with reasonable load helps saturate them and encourage growth, but again the ligaments are not going to gain as much from it as the tendons. The best you can really hope for there is keeping what you got.

Strength is important, but using the legs correctly is more important. Not hyperextending, twisting, or shearing. Relaxing through the joint properly when turning on the weighted leg, or avoiding that entirely.

But the strength, relaxed strength, legs like rubber tree trunks.

Literally all I do is taijiquan solo forms and push hands on the weekends. When I was in pt for the knee they set me up with weights on my ankle and told me to do as many extensions as I could. She stopped me in the 60s, expecting 20 at most based on where I was in recovery.

The last thing I'll say is I have long legs and while that makes kicks fun, the physics of it means when I use my knees wrong there is even more risk of damage.

Either through genetics or injury, when I started training I could barely feel my feet. I mean I could feel discomfort or pain or cold or whatever but my mind and awareness just didn't really penetrate, it didn't even reach an the way down my legs, honestly.

So when we start talking about the effectiveness of the training, I have zero doubt.

Can I beat Fedor? I couldn't give Rhonda Rousey a hard time.
Do I have psychic superpowers? Probably... That thing you lost is in the couch cushion.

I beat my injuries and my own stupidity, I'm tied for first place. Now it's time to rage against entropy till my bones go cold.

[Ad_B]

Please be patient, there may be 'shen' in the end.

Summer time.

All is well, basic of TJQ journey from 2007 has been a long-march of study, practise, learning, unlearning, relearning beset by procrastination, gradual change, misunderstandings and harsh lessons. Its like ahrd-knock lessons set by invisible task-masters/fates/Tao-teachers since, in retrospect there were so many instances of being forced to correct, to learn, to experience whatever it was of whichever aspect of basic Art TJQ was to the fore of my consciousness and practise at the time and every sprain, pain, fall, fail could apparently be linked to the topical pertinance and perspective of the current lesson. I don't believe its so but its definately weird coincidence and once could be an accident but several makes one wonder a bit. Likely its simply self-correcting since ones focus is such-a-way that its just natural to be wrong before you can be right and in moving from unbalance to balance, to fall and to fail before self-correcting.

So, its July and the years of study and practise have paid off a lot. The overloaded job for a toxic employer of 23 years is not the burden it was before TJQ concepts applied and the stress, tiredness and constant toxicity of the management are all just 'water off the ducks back'. Its not about accepting or getting used to it, its about engaging with it and wrangling it physically, mentally, conceptually and positvely via the prism of basics of TJQ. I'd accepted and acclimatised to it in the 7 years before beginning TJQ and it didn't work, it was just exhausting, gruelling negativity plus, I was a youngman then and I'm now middle-aged knocking-on elderly.

Add to that 5 years of being a carer for an aged parent, with a steady loss of mobility and plenty of other problems and continuing (plus including a global pandemic) which is a lot of work, never a spare minute but never-the-less it all just 'flows like a river and never stops' and all is in order and there is no stress or distress, a place for everything and everything in its place.

Karma? A relative, knowing my workload mentioned that I must be exhausted. I replied that honestly? "No", its just a flow which is actually energising and beneficial, I'd never been better and in a way, never been less stressed or overloaded and life is good. I always try to prctise and evaluate TJQ concepts at work since for most of the day I'm alone and self-governed and outside in the country. My approach is to assume that the basics include Qigong, neigong, meditation and diet & etc as a complete lifestyle art and craft and whilst, one pleasant summer morning at work, pondering the matter of my relatives question and my response wondered if I had arrived at a good, basic, operationally effective level of basic TJQ or there was anything I'd missed, anything needing more practise, more polishing, more learning and decide upon focussing a bit more refining and defining work on Shengong.

Later that day, it was like a mind-fucking explosion of fucked-upness setting off a chain of further mind-fucking explosions of fucked-upness that flows like a river of fucked-upness and never fucking stops.

Long story, short version:

Got home and got notice my older brother was dying, he wasn't old but was very ill suddenly. He died 3 days later.
I decided that it was morally correct to be the bearer of the bad news that no parent ever wishes to learn so chose the day before my day off so that I could 'field' the situation with the care and attention it required.

Three weeks later the funeral, I'd done the flowers. Morning of, my sisters decided that aged-parent with little mobility ought to attend. I didn't so, but you cannot reason with highly-charged emotion. Parent injured ankle whilst being moved to car. Had minor stroke. Zero mobility. Now bedridden. Rearrange care needs accordingly. A lot of work.

Work messing about with schedules, workloads, start/finish times and getting rid of workforce at every opportunity.

5 weeks later, Aged Parent to be sent to respite-care home to be assessed for long-term residence which means house must be sold and live-in care made homeless. I'm the live-in carer.

8 weeks later, Despite all that, very calm, good spirits. Very self-congratulatory re: TJQ aspects of staying calm, controlled, healthy, balanced, engaged & etc.
Wonder why or how so calm though. Shen? must evealuate, quantify and qualify. Good opportunity.

Next day

Calmly drive workvan into an apple tree. Senior moment/neurobiological malfunction/psychological autopilot ?

Next day
Banned from driving works van despite only light damage and 23 years clean record and given punishment work. Gave them an opportunity to 'put the boot in' and they glady accepted.

Next week. Aged-parent taken into respite care.

Week later. Stress reaction at work. No mental focus. No physical co-ordination. Really have to deeply, intentionally engage just to keep going. Call doctor for working-fit-note to cover evntualities. Still outwardly calm and functional. inwardly, brainstorming despite consicously engaging that. Its a battle.

Few days later. Considering capitulation as option. To walk away? know that physical and mental shit is not quite right. Still winning, body and spirit still functional evn if in 'emotional lockdown', running on reason alone.

Few days later, 3 days off in a row.

For years, never actually had a 'day off'. Nothing needs doing. Mentally exhausted.

I light a comforting fire in the hearth and settle-down to consider the 'shen' of it.

I'm 99% teetotal. All through that sober. But I recall an historic method of consideration from ancient Persia. They'd consider important points once whislt sober and once whilst drunk to try and cover all bases from both reason and emotion, I guess.

3 ciders and half-pint of single-malt later on and I'm balling like a baby in a bag of broken blades.

So, thats where the emotional response to loss and change was hiding? Behind a fortification of TJQ-style form, posture, attitude & etc

I'd wondered where is was. It didn't seem right that it didn't manifest.

Whilst letting it all go in an alcohol fuelled damburst, I was still observing, as though some part of my consciousness was outside of both emotion and reason and with this part of consciousness I was intentionally scanning (tinging?) my emotional response for its qualities because I cannot allow for self-pity to be in any way, shape or form informing my psychology. I don't mind most anything else, but self-pity is a no-no. There was no self-pity, this was, IMHO, simply a response to a lot of disruption and loss.

That part of the consiousness that was able to be apart from the emotive/reason cognitive processes, to be accessed via intention, to observe and to inform is IMHO...

Shen ?

[origami_itto]

I'm sorry I can't follow that. Could you put your question in 1000 words or less?

[Appledog]

That part of the consiousness that was able to be apart from the emotive/reason cognitive processes, to be accessed via intention, to observe and to inform is IMHO...

Shen ?

I love how you phrase your statement of conclusion as a question to the universe.

Well, first, the problem with alcohol is that it creates a situation that isn't real. If you find yourself making developments within that sphere it indicates you haven't made them in your sober life. If you can transition them into your sober life that is one thing, but most of the time you can't. If you said it yourself ("never had a day off," etc.) then you already know what the problem is, you just happened to soldier through it somehow and came out damaged (of course) on the other side. Alc, like all things, has both temporary and long term effects. The temporary effects are locally transient and thus illusive and intangible. The lasting long term effects are part of your "real" situation. So while you may think it is helping, it is really nailing the door shut.

None of this has anything to do with shen.

I don't think shen is mysterious or complex. Not magical. Not hard to understand. Just part of a formula process which is strongly rooted in the "traditional" or "classical" way of doing things, and today people are not aware of many things associated with this process which prevent them from following it. Many times, your karma simply does not want you to get involved with this kind of thing and will find ways to shut it down if you try to do it. It takes more than just being interested in it to learn it. That alone took me maybe more than 20 years to figure out. Even the very reason you want to get involved in martial arts in the first place, the reason why you are "here"-- doing all these things -- plays such a huge role. It's a lot to mull over. So much to think about.

[D_Glenn]

Sounds like something to do with the 5 Shens: Xin, Yi, Zhi, Hun and Po.

The Xin is ruled by emotions, and this is what you might say is “You”.

But “You” require the other 4 shen to function in the world.

The Yi is the logical side of you. It hears your emotions and wants and then figures out a way to make them happen in the real world. It’s likely the neurotransmitter Acetylcholine that allows the Yi to work.

The Zhi is your willpower, it can choose to carry out the orders given by your Yi.

The Hun is the shen that adds imagination and innovation. It’s normally active at night when we’re dreaming. It processes the work that the Xin, Yi and Zhi did during the day, and then ponders on them at night.

Alcohol wakes up the Hun and it will be the Shen that starts calling the shots. Alcohol gives the Hun the power to control everything. It can lead to a lot of realizations because your imaginations and reframing of ideas is brought to the forefront. So this is likely what happened to you, or rather, a possible explanation based on this daoist model of how the mind works.

The Po is our instinctual and habitual side that will impart influence on our Xin.

Alcohol addiction is a great example of how our Po works, because the Hun can influence the Po and the Po in turn influences our Xin. So soon the drinking of alcohol is a habit. The Po is normally just supposed to influence us, or even take control when it’s a matter of life or death. But it gets warped and now drinking alcohol becomes something that is life or death. Or something that you start believing is required for your survival.

That’s my understanding of the 5 shens, in nutshell

.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

I am late to the discussion and haven't read everything, but did anyone say that the title of this should have been "Talk some Shense into me" yet?

[D_Glenn]

Here’s something to ponder on, in regards to the original post

Qi Jing Shen were ways that they described things happening in the body before scientific study could be done to see what’s actually happening inside the body.

The building blocks of life come from the Polyamines in the body. The function of the Polyamines are nearly exact to what is attributed to Jing. The priority of the human body is to reproduce. So most of the Polyamines are concentrated in the sexual organs, in order to ensure that a fertilized egg can grow. If these Polyamine levels are topped off, or satisfied by whatever level our body determines to be sufficient, then the Polyamines will foster healthy growth in the rest of the body, hence turning towards Qi.
Qi is a myriad of substances, cells and functions. Example Qi leading blood is when our red blood cells fire ATP at the Smooth Muscle Cells in our blood vessels to tell them they need to relax and make way for a surge of blood coming.

Shen matches up with our Neurotransmitters. Yi is closely associated with Acetylcholine. The Primovascular System is how Hyaluronic Acid is transported around our body so it can nourish the joints and skin. Within the Hyaluronic Acid fluid is Acetylcholine. Which implies that the Primovascular System can also act as a secondary nervous system, that is likely sending the signals sent from receptors in our joints back to the brain, and from the brain to the joints. Strengthening this signal is a fundamental part of the CIMA. Increasing and maintaining the integrity of the, comparatively fragile Primovascular system, is also a fundamental part of the CIMA. There’s protocols that address this very issue. (I’ve written about this before, I will have to dig it up.)

As far as a posture to develop Shen. The Wuji stance, with its specific postural requirements is it. The Wuji stance is a Zhuang practice. But to really access your Shen. You need to be in the Wuji Zhuang and start to slowly move (Xing) around. Slowly opening and closing the Kua (Hips). Which will put some pressure against the sacrum. The Sacrum and the bones of our skull are involved in the movement of the Cerebrospinal Fluid (CSF). This movement, when combined with the posture of the spine, in Wuji, which is essentially like a fetal position when someone is sleeping on their side. Combined with a meditative state, can hack our body, and get it to shift into a physiological function that only happens when we’re asleep. This has been dubbed the Glymphatic System by the researchers who first discovered it. The name was chosen because when this happens, the Glial Cells in the brain release the fluid inside their cell walls which results in a dramatic increase of CSF in the brain and Spine. Lots of movement is circulating. The brain is bathed in fluid. Then the excess fluid, full of toxins, begins flowing down into the cervical lymphatics and to the spleen. The movement of this fluid, can be matched up with what was called the Microcosmic Orbit.

Why would you want to hack your body’s physiological function? It feels amazing for one thing. But more importantly is that the gravity of earth can help the excess fluid seep down through the lymphatic system. After this happens, you can and should feel almost like you just had a full night’s rest. Which is sort of like getting twice as much good restful sleep compared to everyone else in the world.

This is how 精 Jing to 氣 Qì to 神 Shen (neurotransmitters) is refined into 炁 Qì. Normally you see this written as ‘Jing to Qi to Shen returning back to the Void (虛 Xu)’. Daoist Monks would use all the 炁 Qì to try and reach deep meditative trances (called returning to the Void). But in the CIMA, we instead use 炁 Qì to help make our bodies stronger and healthier.


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