Talk some shen into me

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:02 pm

In our school of Wu there are 3 forms of the 108
Square
Circular
Circular continuous
On thé rare occasion I show someone thé third form they are blown away
It is the stage after the 24 noi gung and I have yet to meet anyone else who has it
I am just teaching it to one student who has been doing the other two forms for over 20 years
Before that he was the first non Chinese to learn from Ma,s son in Holland
I was also taught the yang form in a very square manner
I continually go back to the square
I call it construct deconstruct
This is what I was talking about on The other thread about relaxation and structure
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby wiesiek on Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:20 pm

Thx., Q., you posted couple good shots too,

...
~`cause shen is totally running away when you starting talking about it,
looks, that only approach is ->let it happen<
and
follow Yeniseri - keep it simple.
Joyful Fruits of the Live
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby everything on Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:14 pm

we may have said this in the thread already.

was reading to put the mind at upper dantian. will help keep shen centered, not too excited, mind less distracted. no shen or mind running away.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby charlie_cambridge on Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:56 am

We don't recommend training the shen/upper dantian until at least 5-10 years under an experienced teacher training a solid basis in the middle dantian first. There are some practices that train the upper dantian fairly early but they are risky (look up "meditation psychosis")

Jing > Qi > Shen correspond to lower, middle, upper dantian as I understand it. Most of the things we train in the first 10 years of taiji relate to the Jing and might not even scratch the surface of the Qi, much less the Shen.

As an example, my understanding is that the ability to feel your own heartbeat (the loudest internal pressure in the body not counting obvious external pressures like in the foot from all your body weight shifting) is still on the level of Jing, and even the heat sensors (to notice the minor difference in temperature when someone moves within a meter of you, very clearly so even with eyes closed/before they touch you in push hands) is still mostly on the level of the body/Jing or maybe the lowest most superficial level of barely scratching the "qi"

As another example, the throwing people around with elastic force (the Jin) at its basic level is just alignment and a certain motor control, very basic Jing level and not at all a high level skill like some people seem to think. It has nothing to do with the Qi which is much subtler, and we believe most old Chinese teachers who talk about "using the Qi" in that context are just hiding the real info because the student is not an inner school student.

So trying to do anything with the Shen before deepening the awareness and training those basic "Jing" level things is probably pure imagination and not at all helpful.

We advocate training at the edge of our awareness wherever that is, not the obvious body movement (which Patrick would call "level zero"/not even doing taiji at all, that's just moving the limbs around) but also not too far beyond our current awareness that we're just making stuff up in our head. Best to train at the level of subtlety we can barely detect (something real) with effort and concentration
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby Quigga on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:15 am

Imo you can get quite far with Zen, grounding and rooting, prayer and heart opening, stillness and navel gazing. Though everything one does in training ultimately has the goal to increase flow.

Jing Qi Shen - in my limited experience; where does a waterfall start or stop, and then: where does a salmon stop climbing?

Ideally on my plate, roasted in butter and garlic :-D
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:40 am

charlie_cambridge wrote:We don't recommend training the shen/upper dantian until at least 5-10 years under an experienced teacher training a solid basis in the middle dantian first. There are some practices that train the upper dantian fairly early but they are risky (look up "meditation psychosis")

Jing > Qi > Shen correspond to lower, middle, upper dantian as I understand it. Most of the things we train in the first 10 years of taiji relate to the Jing and might not even scratch the surface of the Qi, much less the Shen.

As an example, my understanding is that the ability to feel your own heartbeat (the loudest internal pressure in the body not counting obvious external pressures like in the foot from all your body weight shifting) is still on the level of Jing, and even the heat sensors (to notice the minor difference in temperature when someone moves within a meter of you, very clearly so even with eyes closed/before they touch you in push hands) is still mostly on the level of the body/Jing or maybe the lowest most superficial level of barely scratching the "qi"

As another example, the throwing people around with elastic force (the Jin) at its basic level is just alignment and a certain motor control, very basic Jing level and not at all a high level skill like some people seem to think. It has nothing to do with the Qi which is much subtler, and we believe most old Chinese teachers who talk about "using the Qi" in that context are just hiding the real info because the student is not an inner school student.

So trying to do anything with the Shen before deepening the awareness and training those basic "Jing" level things is probably pure imagination and not at all helpful.

We advocate training at the edge of our awareness wherever that is, not the obvious body movement (which Patrick would call "level zero"/not even doing taiji at all, that's just moving the limbs around) but also not too far beyond our current awareness that we're just making stuff up in our head. Best to train at the level of subtlety we can barely detect (something real) with effort and concentration


Can you do, have felt or show examples of your understanding :)

nice site BTW :)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby charlie_cambridge on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:41 am

Quigga wrote:Imo you can get quite far with Zen, grounding and rooting, prayer and heart opening, stillness and navel gazing. Though everything one does in training ultimately has the goal to increase flow.

Jing Qi Shen - in my limited experience; where does a waterfall start or stop, and then: where does a salmon stop climbing?

Ideally on my plate, roasted in butter and garlic :-D



PK cautions strongly and repeatedly against just navel gazing and quotes various old teachers in different places about this. For example his notes in sections on "self observation" and "universal mistake" here:
https://worldwideway.org/wwway/meditation.html

We call that the "quiet superficial mind" that most people mistake for something deeper. We pass through there but then listen for deeper sensations in the body amongst other things, resting there for too long (the quiet sitting "empty mind" stuff) causes potential problems, including people mistaking that for a much deeper state than it really is.

PK would say a common misunderstanding of Zen by the "mindfulness" people is that the quiet stage is just a first step before anyone can do anything, it's not the end goal.
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby charlie_cambridge on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:46 am

windwalker wrote:
charlie_cambridge wrote:We don't recommend training the shen/upper dantian until at least 5-10 years under an experienced teacher training a solid basis in the middle dantian first. There are some practices that train the upper dantian fairly early but they are risky (look up "meditation psychosis")

Jing > Qi > Shen correspond to lower, middle, upper dantian as I understand it. Most of the things we train in the first 10 years of taiji relate to the Jing and might not even scratch the surface of the Qi, much less the Shen.

As an example, my understanding is that the ability to feel your own heartbeat (the loudest internal pressure in the body not counting obvious external pressures like in the foot from all your body weight shifting) is still on the level of Jing, and even the heat sensors (to notice the minor difference in temperature when someone moves within a meter of you, very clearly so even with eyes closed/before they touch you in push hands) is still mostly on the level of the body/Jing or maybe the lowest most superficial level of barely scratching the "qi"

As another example, the throwing people around with elastic force (the Jin) at its basic level is just alignment and a certain motor control, very basic Jing level and not at all a high level skill like some people seem to think. It has nothing to do with the Qi which is much subtler, and we believe most old Chinese teachers who talk about "using the Qi" in that context are just hiding the real info because the student is not an inner school student.

So trying to do anything with the Shen before deepening the awareness and training those basic "Jing" level things is probably pure imagination and not at all helpful.

We advocate training at the edge of our awareness wherever that is, not the obvious body movement (which Patrick would call "level zero"/not even doing taiji at all, that's just moving the limbs around) but also not too far beyond our current awareness that we're just making stuff up in our head. Best to train at the level of subtlety we can barely detect (something real) with effort and concentration


Can you do, have felt or show examples of your understanding :)


Hi windwalker,

Thanks for checking out my site.

Not sure how I can show example of how I can feel my own heartbeat, other than if you followed our practice for a month you might be able to hear your own too and it should be pretty clear when it happens. For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one. Can show you that in 3 minutes if you're ever in the Boston area, not in a free sparring contest but as a simple controlled exercise/drill I can show you the quality of my touch. Or you can look up any of PK's senior students mostly in EU, they can more or less all consistently do the same basic things to some level: https://patrickkellytaiji.com/worldwideschools.html
Last edited by charlie_cambridge on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby charlie_cambridge on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:52 am

PS if interested, there's a public clip of PK leading a guided meditation on his student Christine's website here:
https://www.taiji-schule.at/index.php/videos-en.html

We recommend you train a few minutes of taiji (even a portion of the form or whole form if you have time) to put the mind in a slightly deeper good condition prior to starting the meditation if you want to try to follow along that one.

Christine has a brief clip of her doing something under, I can more or less demo (a more rough version of, but same idea) that too: it is not qi magic or a high level skill (and a complete beginner could in theory learn to do that in 10 minutes if they did exactly what I told them to do with their body)--it's some sensitivity/awareness but mostly body mechanics and knowing what to do with the body and mind and when. I believe still Jing level (not qi much less shen)
Last edited by charlie_cambridge on Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:00 am

charlie_cambridge wrote:

Hi windwalker,

Thanks for checking out my site.

Not sure how I can show example of how I can feel my own heartbeat, other than if you followed our practice for a month you might be able to hear your own too and it should be pretty clear when it happens.

For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one. Can show you that in 3 minutes

if you're ever in the Boston area, not in a free sparring contest but as a simple controlled exercise/drill I can show you the quality of my touch. Or you can look up any of PK's senior students mostly in EU, they can more or less all consistently do the same basic things to some level: https://patrickkellytaiji.com/worldwideschools.html


In my own work based on my teachers work,

what is talked/written about is a reality.

The use of "Qi" and "Shen" quite clear

The method maybe not so clear :)



Yes it does to take awhile... :P


I asked this because many write about things either they can't do, have not felt, or only exists in their minds...

When presented with examples of it,,,often they mock it,,maybe not understanding its what they just wrote about... ;D

nice post BTW

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2021/02/07/volley-jin-2/


Details some of my teachers work and mine...

For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one.

Can show you that in 3 minutes
.

;D



In reading and looking at some of the clips of "basic elastic" force not some thing we use or focus on....

seems different....

cheers.

To be clear my posting is in the spirit of sharing experiences
Enjoy reading about and discussing the work :)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby charlie_cambridge on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:14 am

Thanks for sharing,

We are also not obsessed with competition/throwing people--the reason we train the elastic force is because that is the taiji-jin, and because it is a gateway to train the mind and the higher things. The throwing is not to show off skill but actually as one of the concrete things to help lead beginners deeper, a bit of a first step.

Thank you for sharing the clip, PK wrote about Chee Soo doing something similar in his book Infinite Dao, and mentioned that Ma Yueliang occasionally used it but neither Professor Cheng, Huang Xingxian, or Ma Yueliang thought too highly of the no touch pushes.

Master Huang's comment to PK was that when you see someone demonstrate that "external qi" (no touch push) you should ask if they can do it to an inanimate object like a feather. Most will not be able to, because there is often a heavy component of subconscious suggestion involved.

The qi is real of course and people who can do this have a much better grasp of it than I do at the moment, but more often than not there is also a component of suggestion involved. PK felt this from Chee Soo early in his training (anecdote in Infinite Dao, knocked everyone else down and made PK wobble though he was able to remain standing, felt the wave of "external qi" for sure) but claimed that after 15 yrs training with Master Huang this sort of thing does not work on him anymore.


windwalker wrote:
charlie_cambridge wrote:

Hi windwalker,

Thanks for checking out my site.

Not sure how I can show example of how I can feel my own heartbeat, other than if you followed our practice for a month you might be able to hear your own too and it should be pretty clear when it happens.

For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one. Can show you that in 3 minutes

if you're ever in the Boston area, not in a free sparring contest but as a simple controlled exercise/drill I can show you the quality of my touch. Or you can look up any of PK's senior students mostly in EU, they can more or less all consistently do the same basic things to some level: https://patrickkellytaiji.com/worldwideschools.html


In my own work based on my teachers work,

what is talked/written about is a reality.

The use of "Qi" and "Shen" quite clear

The method maybe not so clear :)



Yes it does to take awhile... :P


I asked this because many write about things either they can't do, have not felt, or only exists in their minds...

When presented with examples of it,,,often they mock it,,maybe not understanding its what they just wrote about... ;D

nice post BTW

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2021/02/07/volley-jin-2/


Details some of my teachers work and mine...

For the basic elastic force we do a few minutes of simple exercises like that at the end of each class from day one.

Can show you that in 3 minutes
.

;D



In reading and looking at some of the clips of "basic elastic" force not some thing we use or focus on....

seems different....

cheers.

To be clear my posting is in the spirit of sharing experiences
Enjoy reading about and discussing the work :)
charlie_cambridge
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:29 am

Master Huang's comment to PK was that when you see someone demonstrate that "external qi" (no touch push) you should ask if they can do it to an inanimate object like a feather. Most will not be able to, because there is often a heavy component of subconscious suggestion involved.


While interesting it shows a complete lack of understanding the theory

Why would I need to ask anyone,,,

Was there, have felt, and can do to my own limited ability... ;D

Never the less, the theory is outlined here :)

自己的意氣是不是通出體外了,要問對方。在初級階段,與對方一搭手,對方感到不過,就說 明內氣達到對方身上了。以後經過學練,逐步能"聽"、"問"、"拿"、
"放"用意氣發人,進行技 擊。

To find out whether your Yi and Qi are projected outside your body, you may ask your opponent. When you first study and touch hand with your opponent, they may feel uncomfortable.

Thus it is clear that the Internal Qi has reached their body. After you practice and improve, then you can use “listen, ask, seize, and let go” (Ting, Wen, Na, Fang) and use Yi and Qi to 發 (Fa, “explode,” i.e. Fajin) as the basis of your fighting skills.


https://journeytoemptiness.com/2022/02/ ... chi-chuan/
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:35 am

The qi is real of course and people who can do this have a much better grasp of it than I do at the moment, but more often than not there is also a component of suggestion involved.



Kinda my point....If "you" can't do it... you may not really understand what you've mentioned...

This too is tested...

Some speculate there may be some psychological compliance by the students, or un voiced expectations elicited by the teacher. The only way one would know is to find someone in the practice and to experience or not, first hand.
https://journeytoemptiness.com/2021/03/ ... y-jin-3-0/

any way, as mentioned very interesting post.. :)

Not going to say much more on this....

Liked your post, hope you post more and share your experiences / thoughts

kind regards
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby charlie_cambridge on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:49 am

Fair enough. To clarify when you say you "can do" do you mean you can push someone (not your student/classmate) over without touching them?

By "mind trick" I did not mean psychological compliance, I mean it can still work on uncomplying people who aren't trained to that level. I would not say the feather comment demonstrates misunderstanding, my understanding is that Huang and the others including PK had met people who could do it to an inanimate object like a feather, and many more who could do it to people but not inanimate objects.

But agree with your point that I only really understand what I can do myself.

windwalker wrote:
The qi is real of course and people who can do this have a much better grasp of it than I do at the moment, but more often than not there is also a component of suggestion involved.



Kinda my point....If "you" can't do it... you may not really understand what you've mentioned...

This too is tested...

Some speculate there may be some psychological compliance by the students, or un voiced expectations elicited by the teacher. The only way one would know is to find someone in the practice and to experience or not, first hand.
https://journeytoemptiness.com/2021/03/ ... y-jin-3-0/

any way, as mentioned very interesting post.. :)
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Re: Talk some shen into me

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:59 am

The qi is real of course and people who can do this have a much better grasp of it than I do at the moment, but more often than not there is also a component of suggestion involved.

PK felt this from Chee Soo early in his training (anecdote in Infinite Dao, knocked everyone else down and made PK wobble though he was able to remain standing, felt the wave of "external qi" for sure) but claimed that after 15 yrs training with Master Huang this sort of thing does not work on him anymore.


Quite interesting thanks for sharing...

Seems like he would have investigated the "what " and "why"

If the what was "Qi" as mentioned it would go a long way in understanding the why

Possibilities outlined by examining the general theory by what it's said to act on....

Good anecdote :)
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