Talk some shen into me

[windwalker]

Fair enough. To clarify when you say you "can do" do you mean you can push someone (not your student/classmate) over without touching them?

No one eve thinks about how people become students before they are students.
In most cases they feel something that they've never felt before

They become students as I became my teacher's student to understand what I had just felt...

Something he did in meeting his teacher after losing a match....
isn't that always the case


Whether touched or not, the process by which it works is the same....Its not about pushing the person...

Might not make much sense if one does not first understand what it's thought to be acting on....

In answer to your question,,,yes, for most people they will feel some effect....not really the point of training
only the basis of what the training is based on...

Welcome to RSF BTW

Posted many threads on this very topic...using noted teacher's, and offering my own experiences...

never works out well

Your first post was interesting as are many others, just wondered from what point it was written from.

Have been studying working with some of the ideas expressed for a while...

edited:
Have read some of PK, books,, a good teacher with a long practice...

[everything]

welcome charlie. if you pushed with Ben Lo, you surely felt some of what is discussed / what is hard to discuss / what most haven't felt and cannot do (I can't do it afaik). we can't ask what a feather feels, so even more difficult to speculate.

[charlie_cambridge]

Hi Everything,

I studied every week with Ben Lo for approx two and a half years. He once pushed me out approx 30 times in 2 minutes with his fingertip for fun. I still never felt from him or anyone in the class what I felt when I pushed with PK. With Ben I could feel a) him disappear completely and me involuntarily move far past my conscious intent, despite my best efforts and b) a giant mountain coming my way (but I could feel enough to know it was time to run away).

With PK I felt the exact same thing as a) but instead of running me over like b), he then issued me in a way that I felt absolutely nothing. Could not run away because I couldn't even feel anything happen until after I landed.

The point with the feather is you don't need to know what the feather feels, you can see it actually move if people can really do it at that level.

welcome charlie. if you pushed with Ben Lo, you surely felt some of what is discussed / what is hard to discuss / what haven't felt and cannot do (I can't do it afaik). we can't ask what a feather feels, so even more difficult to speculate.

[charlie_cambridge]

Hi Windwalker,

Good point, I was mainly paraphrasing my understanding of stuff heard from my teacher, thanks for helpful reminder that I should probably be sparing in passing on stuff I haven't fully understood myself yet. Meant as a preview of stuff we are working on, to entice interested people to hopefully visit in Boston.


[/quote]

Your first post was interesting as are many others, just wondered from what point it was written from.

[/quote]

[windwalker]

"charlie_cambridge"]Hi Windwalker,

Good point, I was mainly paraphrasing my understanding of stuff heard from my teacher, thanks for helpful reminder that I should probably be sparing in passing on stuff I haven't fully understood myself yet. Meant as a preview of stuff we are working on, to entice interested people to hopefully visit in Boston.

Your post are interesting pls continue to share...

Nice site, looks like a good group.....with experience...
I'm sure you and the group will help many along the taiji path.

Used to talk with Ben Lo, among others before meeting my last teacher....
finding what I was looking for in him....meeting him by fate, or maybe just luck..

With Ben, always found it interesting ...he would talk about "Qi"
but yet limited it to his understanding and experience.

Only until much later, would I come to feel maybe
his theoretical "understanding" was limited...IMO

Either he didn't know, or was not able to entertain
the idea unable get pass his own high level of skill....to approach it..

Used to come by and chat with him, practiced in some of his drop in sessions for visiting people of the same style,,....
met him i guess around in the 80s,,,,in SF my home town.

small story..

He correcting my posture.

Ben - with this small finger I can move you,,,your stance is not correct....
me---yes, but that small finger belongs to a taiji master

He stopped looked at me, we both laughed.

good guy, very hard training....

[origami_itto]

Hi Everything,

I studied every week with Ben Lo for approx two and a half years. He once pushed me out approx 30 times in 2 minutes with his fingertip for fun. I still never felt from him or anyone in the class what I felt when I pushed with PK. With Ben I could feel a) him disappear completely and me involuntarily move far past my conscious intent, despite my best efforts and b) a giant mountain coming my way (but I could feel enough to know it was time to run away).

With PK I felt the exact same thing as a) but instead of running me over like b), he then issued me in a way that I felt absolutely nothing. Could not run away because I couldn't even feel anything happen until after I landed.

The point with the feather is you don't need to know what the feather feels, you can see it actually move if people can really do it at that level.

welcome charlie. if you pushed with Ben Lo, you surely felt some of what is discussed / what is hard to discuss / what haven't felt and cannot do (I can't do it afaik). we can't ask what a feather feels, so even more difficult to speculate.

One of my friends from Austin had trained a lot with Ben Lo and told me the same thing about the fingertip, that he just touched him on the chest with his fingertip and it felt like he was blown back by an invisible wind. he also said when he was doing that, it looked something like something was crawling under his skin down the arm towards the finger.

This guy is no lightweight, either, definitely one of the better guys I have pushed with.

[charlie_cambridge]

Yes Ben Lo had this trick where you could literally see the center of his palm inflating and deflating like a balloon with just his breath (as an example of how "relaxed" he was), I believe many of his students and attendees at his workshops have seen this one.

There was a reason I had no interest in learning a new form when I moved to Shanghai in 2010, pushed with everyone in the park willing to push with me, visited every relevant school I could find, etc... just kept practicing what my first teacher and Ben taught me, until I met PK 2014. My intention originally was to find people to train push hands with, not to join a class. Touching hands with PK once and talking to him for 5 minutes changed my mind and I now train exclusively what PK teaches.

Some of the basic things overlap, but there are significant differences in the details. Personally, when I see old clips of Ben (e.g. Michael Jang had a tumblr archive of many awhile ago), I can now see him doing some things that PK teaches explicitly that Ben never mentioned in my two weeklong workshops with him plus my 2+ years weekly practice with him. I personally believe Ben does a number of things subconsciously where his body knows it, and he uses words that have specific meanings for him that don't mean anything like what many of his students (or a dictionary) would think.

I believe Ben is very misinterpreted and knew a lot more than he let on. In one of his old Berkeley lectures he explicitly said to a crowded room that in Taiwan he taught 100s of principles/details, but no one can even do basics right so he really dumbed it down to 5 in the US. Somehow decades later many people say/think "Ben has 5 key principles."

Watching the standard Ben Lo youtube clip I can now see at least one spot where it looks exactly like he wanted to do a move like we do it (Huang Xingxian taught, slight difference from what US CMC people do) and did a very brief pause before changing it to the "orthodox" US CMC form. I never noticed before and only noticed because I've been training PK/Huang's form and looking exactly for that change. Reminds of debates where people take pictures of old teachers out and compare them, my understanding is the analysis is pointless because every teacher is doing it wrong in the photo on purpose (that whole inner outer school thing). The only thing I'd analyze in old videos would be the exact moment they actually issue someone, because of course that only works if they do the real move. Then they usually still try to make the move as small as possible so people can't see what they are actually doing, and then for people like Huang people who weren't there think it's either qi magic or fake because they can't see what he actually did.

[wayne hansen]

So every old teacher who ever was photographed was deliberately deceiving the camera
Interesting

[charlie_cambridge]

So every old teacher who ever was photographed was deliberately deceiving the camera
Interesting

Hi Wayne,

The old Chinese ones at least. They didn't teach the majority of their actual students the real thing (the outer school) or at least withheld many key details, much less the general public (Huang deliberately taught things incorrectly in public "mixed martial art gathering" seminars for people he didn't know), so much much less in some photo/video for public distribution to the world.

One way to tell people who never studied seriously in Huang Xingxian's school would be the ones who move like he does in his videos e.g. say the 5 loosenings: those are completely wrong and different from what he taught the inner school, and when people move like his vids on youtube, it's a clear sign that they learned from that youtube vid and not in his actual class.

PK is a bit more open about it because he sees an inherent safety valve in the taiji: it's subtle enough that most rough people will never understand it anyway, so he feels less need to keep "secrets" from his students.

[everything]

. He didn’t push me with his finger, but he could have.

I couldn’t feel any “qi” back then. He told us to “bend low” and hold a lot of low stances. Despite having a lot of cycling, soccer, tennis experience, I couldn’t hold them. My understanding is too low to know if his theory had any shortcomings WW or others might know. Was young and the simplest instructions were too difficult for me. I don’t think he could’ve dumbed it down further. He made it clear that was what he did. It makes the stories of Guo Yunsheng and Wang Xiangxhai doing zhan zhuang more interesting to me.

In any case, it’s great if PK is even “better” for you! Glad to hear it!

[Bao]

I studied every week with Ben Lo for approx two and a half years. He once pushed me out approx 30 times in 2 minutes with his fingertip for fun. I still never felt from him or anyone in the class what I felt when I pushed with PK. With Ben I could feel a) him disappear completely and me involuntarily move far past my conscious intent, despite my best efforts and b) a giant mountain coming my way (but I could feel enough to know it was time to run away).

Thank you for sharing. I always enjoy listening to stories about great teachers and practitioners.

[origami_itto]

. He didn’t push me with his finger, but he could have.

I couldn’t feel any “qi” back then. He told us to “bend low” and hold a lot of low stances. Despite having a lot of cycling, soccer, tennis experience, I couldn’t hold them.

Yes I was told he really emphasized the single leg stances as well. Essentially you should always be on a single leg.

In my practice the free leg can step, kick, sweep, lift, knee at any time from virtually any posture.The low stance work builds that.

But I work on it all day, I brush my teeth with one foot on the counter doing single leg squats with the other. I do single leg squats at my desk all day. I throw kicks all day long just walking around the house.

[Quigga]

Hey Charles, a warm welcome from me too .

First of all, I didn't yet read your link so my response might change after that. Are you equating Zen and navel gazing to be the same essentially? That would be wrong imo. IMLE, once you reach a deep level of stillness, Yang Chi starts stirring within you. The 'fun' only begins then . Again, I have a lot to learn.

Thanks for providing a list with teachers that are associated with you and your school. I'll check some of them out next year in Germany and report back .

Edit: My response doesn't change . Meditation is obviously different than being in a coma

[Quigga]

Re the single leg: one path through one foot towards the toes, forefoot, bubbling spring, another path through the other foot towards the heel - that second foot can easily be lifted and is essentially floating all the time. They merge inside to create one path. That's what not being double weighted is about imo.

[charlie_cambridge]

Hey Charles, a warm welcome from me too .

First of all, I didn't yet read your link so my response might change after that. Are you equating Zen and navel gazing to be the same essentially? That would be wrong imo. IMLE, once you reach a deep level of stillness, Yang Chi starts stirring within you. The 'fun' only begins then . Again, I have a lot to learn.

Thanks for providing a list with teachers that are associated with you and your school. I'll check some of them out next year in Germany and report back .

Edit: My response doesn't change . Meditation is obviously different than being in a coma

Thanks Quigga,

I would in particular recommend Heribert Greiner in Freiburg or Michael Ploetz (Plotz with the two dots above the "o") in Hamburg. Michael is the demo partner in this video: https://patrickkellytaiji.com/vids/paksanshou.html
though I suspect if/when you touch hands with him in person that will put the video in much more context.

Re Zen, I am not equating real Zen with navel gazing, though it seems to misinterpreted that way by a lot of practitioners.

Re other comments on Ben and standing on one leg, yes Ben talked a lot about separating 100% weight and could of course go all the way straight down in squatting single whip (snake creeps down) which his belly and lower back completely relaxed i.e. basically a one legged pistol squat straight down to ground and back up with no counterbalancing and the core muscles completely relaxed etc etc... and that is how I trained (lots of holding one legged postures at least a few minutes every day for 10+ yrs, "bend low" form at least twice a day picking 100% empty foot up slowly off ground with zero weight for every step etc...) for 10+ years before I met PK. I could "root" below the majority of people I pushed with when I met PK (context for my earlier post above describing first time I touched hands with PK).

PK smiled at my confused look after he issued me (from standing with his legs straight and parallel on the front half of his feet with his heels hanging off an edge) and his first comment to me (I hadn't said anything, he just saw my confused look) was "relax is not the same thing as going down" and proceeded to tell me they did not hold postures (zhan zhuang) in his school. Since that was the foundation of my practice for 10 years I had many questions about that (and would have dismissed the advice outright had I not just touched hands with him and felt what he had firsthand). within a month or two of meeting PK I stopped holding postures and started training his way instead.