Talk some shen into me

[everything]

ben would demonstrate his thing while sitting in a chair as well. no stance or squat or legs touching ground. so is there a contradiction? phases? a hazing ritual? a way to enter a door? all of the above? i don't know. personally, after a long time doing form without going too low, I finally noticed and could do "sinking qi" aside from things like letting muscle "hang" on the skeleton and all that stuff. after that point, it's not necessary to hold any particular stance to "sink qi" or find that "qi follows yi". not that I can do any of it well. just phases I noticed. perhaps that is a long, traditional route. inside follows outside first. others with some natural talent may be able to do so relatively instantly, I don't know.

[Quigga]

Thanks Charlie

[charlie_cambridge]

ben would demonstrate his thing while sitting in a chair as well. no stance or squat or legs touching ground. so is there a contradiction? phases? a hazing ritual? a way to enter a door? all of the above? i don't know. personally, after a long time doing form without going too low, I finally noticed and could do "sinking qi" aside from things like letting muscle "hang" on the skeleton and all that stuff. after that point, it's not necessary to hold any particular stance to "sink qi" or find that "qi follows yi". not that I can do any of it well. just phases I noticed. perhaps that is a long, traditional route. inside follows outside first. others with some natural talent may be able to do so relatively instantly, I don't know.

My understanding is Ben was a traditionalist and taught exactly the way he was taught by his teacher. Ben was also too sick to get out of bed (congenital Hep C) when he began taiji which is why CMC taught him in the first place, to strengthen his body. Perhaps standing has some benefit there.

Huang also began the same traditional way and held countless hours of zhan zhuang as well. His approach evolved with his understanding that zhan zhuang was a very inefficient exercise. PK has told us that the it was used mainly to test the students' will to learn (so basically kung fu hazing) while building leg strength, but that the "root" it builds is more suitable for harder gongfu and not the more fluid, mobile, and elastic connection between the waist and the feet that taiji requires.

[Doc Stier]

Huang also began the same traditional way and held countless hours of zhan zhuang as well. His approach evolved with his understanding that zhan zhuang was a very inefficient exercise. PK has told us that the it was used mainly to test the students' will to learn (so basically kung fu hazing) while building leg strength, but that the "root" it builds is more suitable for harder gongfu and not the more fluid, mobile, and elastic connection between the waist and the feet that taiji requires.

With all due respect for Mr Kelly, I disagree with his opinion regarding the value of zhan zhuang training.

Establishing a consistently solid root is fundamentally important in developing effective fighting skills, both defensively and offensively, as a default body method within any style or system of hand to hand combat.

Those who are unable to consistently maintain the balance and stability of bottom heavy rooting in a fixed stance will invariably also be unable to maintain same when performing active steps with speed and power. This is an easily observable fact.

The standing practices represent the first half of the process towards achieving that result. The second half involves acquiring the feeling of transferring the stationary root from a fixed stance to each foot in turn while quickly moving around. Overall, the process is more easily understood intellectually than actually known experientially in practice or application. ymmv

[wayne hansen]

Huangs 5 exercises are basically ZZ
Especially number 1 (original order)
You would call it number 2

[charlie_cambridge]

Establishing a consistently solid root is fundamentally important in developing effective fighting skills, both defensively and offensively, as a default body method within any style or system of hand to hand combat.

Those who are unable to consistently maintain the balance and stability of bottom heavy rooting in a fixed stance will invariably also be unable to maintain same when performing active steps with speed and power. This is an easily observable fact.

The standing practices represent the first half of the process towards achieving that result. The second half involves acquiring the feeling of transferring the stationary root from a fixed stance to each foot in turn while quickly moving around. Overall, the process is more easily understood intellectually than actually known experientially in practice or application. ymmv

Prior to meeting PK I would have more or less completely agreed with you. After meeting and training with him, my view has changed. I agree "bottom heavy" is a key tenet of "root" cited by many Shaolin and modern taiji practitioners and was one component of how I thought about it prior to meeting PK; it is not my current understanding/not how I currently think about it.

Huangs 5 exercises are basically ZZ
Especially number 1 (original order)
You would call it number 2

Hi Wayne,
Not sure what you mean by "original order" or which specific exercise you are referring, but Huang's 5 loosenings (I don't believe anyone debates/disputes at least the general order) are:
1. vertical, horizontal, and spiralling waves (including shifting and turning that alternates through 100% weight in each foot), center does not stop moving, so very much not traditional zhan zhuang
2. continuous up and down movement of the center, so not traditional zhan zhuang
3. spiralling waves, turning and sinking, center also moving continuously
4. similar to 2, arms doing additional things, plus the big circles of shoulder blades and unrolling to align spine etc, also very much not traditional zhan zhuang
5. 5 phases of muscle changes (vertical circle) with center moving continuously

The most major obvious difference between the 5 loosenings and ZZ is that the body (both the center and the arms) is moving quite a lot in the 5 loosenings while it is not in the ZZ. In terms of listening to alignment in the body, training stability in the base etc.. yes the 5 loosenings accomplish some of these similar aims. Huang preferred this approach because our understanding is building a moving elastic organization of the body tends to produce a different quality from simply holding the body still in space, or trying to "continuously sink and align straight down" as I personally trained for 10 yrs prior to meeting PK.

PK did not say ZZ was completely useless, but that Huang moved away from it because his experience was that the loosenings and the meditation were more efficient means to accomplish the aims of ZZ. I personally find PK's explanations made a lot more sense to me than the usual reasons given for ZZ which in my experience have been:
a) "my teacher's teacher did it this way and so do lots of martial artists"
b) "it makes your legs stronger/grows your root/focuses your mind" (these are all true, does not mean it is the best/most efficient way to do these things for our purposes)
c) "do it for 20 years and you'll understand" (not so helpful when you're already doing it and asking as a serious student)

[wayne hansen]

The original order and how they were done has changed over the years
Just look in Huangs book they are in there
The long film of his ten year celebration of his arrival in Malaysia has several people doing them in the original order
The order they are done in today was originally 3/1/2/4/5

[charlie_cambridge]

The original order and how they were done has changed over the years
Just look in Huangs book they are in there
The long film of his ten year celebration of his arrival in Malaysia has several people doing them in the original order
The order they are done in today was originally 3/1/2/4/5

Thanks Wayne,

My understanding is Huang continued to improve and refine over his life and I believe made some comment along the lines of only approx age 65 did he begin to understand taiji. (I should look up exact quote, it’s in Infinite Dao somewhere)

I was not aware that Huang Xingxian wrote any book on taiji? Is there an English translation or was this a Chinese version only?

[wayne hansen]

I lost mine in a fire 20 years ago
Can’t remember if it was in English
It had the 5 and the 37 step

[everything]

It raises the fangsong questions.
Any grappler is hard to uproot or take down.
But still not so song when it comes to this stuff.

Also raises redundancy / layers of defense/skill questions.

And leg “yang”, upper body “yin”.
I have to make my legs strong for some knee rehab.
Low stances and this “contracting” strength are not mutually exclusive to inner work as far as I can tell for me. Qi follows yi

Good stuff

[wayne hansen]

This is what Huangs original number one now number two exercise is all about

[origami_itto]

It raises the fangsong questions.
Any grappler is hard to uproot or take down.
But still not so song when it comes to this stuff.

Also raises redundancy / layers of defense/skill questions.

And leg “yang”, upper body “yin”.
I have to make my legs strong for some knee rehab.
Low stances and this “contracting” strength are not mutually exclusive to inner work as far as I can tell for me. Qi follows yi

Good stuff

The yin and yang is all over, not just up and down or left and right, you've got up and down and left and right and many gradiations in between. You can be double weighted on one leg.

Which is to say the contracting strength is the beginning to get you to the next part in my opinion.You start with the outer muscles and the work progresses inward till the deep muscles are doing the work and the surface muscles are loose and pliable. Most folks can get it a little in the upper body after a few years but the legs take decades of steady work in my experience to get anything like the same results. Lot of low work, lot of one leg work, lot of kicks.

I don't know what set me off here. I think somebody said something about bottom heavy. I think that's correct but confusing. Like, I don't want my legs to be heavy. I want my weight to be under my legs. The entire body is light and agile and all the parts connected like a string of pearls. Get a string of knotted pearls and play with them. You don't lock half up in a stiff mass.

Do the exercises diligently and correctly and you get the strength you need to get there, I think shortcuts like direct muscle isolating weight lifting take you the wrong direction.

For knee rehab, don't know what you are getting specifically but had my acl replaced. There was a piece of equipment my insurance covered the rental for, my leg strapped in and it lifted my knee towards my chest and bent my lower leg gently. I sat in it for up to 8 hours a day for a couple weeks in the rehab. It's not the only thing I did differently than some other folks I talked to but I think it's one of the key things that made my recovery so quick and painless. These people in immobilizers are still limping and grimacing six months later. I was already handling steps without trouble by then.

But also, lot of push hands and standing before I went in, legs were already strong, and I had spent 9 years learning how to walk without an ACL so my stepping was already very careful and measured.

[everything]

I’m also bottom heavy due to short legs, no muscle up top, etc.

I don’t have the “non contracting” fangsong up top but I’d say it’s way closer than in legs. If I can go from leg strength to yin/yang everywhere, it’d be better.

I’m sort of doing super-easy strength if that makes sense. Very easy KB work just enough resistance to make sure I feel my “VMO” activate well. Makes my knee area feel good. Cannot imagine having no ACL, though.

[charlie_cambridge]

This is what Huangs original number one now number two exercise is all about

The order they are done in today was originally 3/1/2/4/5

Just to clarify on this, if you are using the numbers based on today's order, then the original number 1 is now number 3. Or if you mean the numbers above are the original numbers are the original numbers then the original number 3 is now number 1? Either way I don't see how the original number 1 would now be number 2 per the order you gave above?
For my understanding, could you confirm if you are talking about the number 2 today i.e. going straight up and down over two full cycles of the arm changes? (or just describe the one that you mean using either today's numbering or physical description?)

I lost mine in a fire 20 years ago
Can’t remember if it was in English
It had the 5 and the 37 step

To clarify, are you thinking of "Relax Deep Mind" by Patrick Kelly [not to plug merchandise, but there is a new version out with some interesting detail/explanation on some lines in the classics], or a book written by Huang Xingxian? [edit: I checked google and see you are Ye Xiu Ting's lineage, did you study in Malaysia/meet Master Huang, PK or others while there?]

[origami_itto]

I’m also bottom heavy due to short legs, no muscle up top, etc.

I don’t have the “non contracting” fangsong up top but I’d say it’s way closer than in legs. If I can go from leg strength to yin/yang everywhere, it’d be better.

I’m sort of doing super-easy strength if that makes sense. Very easy KB work just enough resistance to make sure I feel my “VMO” activate well. Makes my knee area feel good. Cannot imagine having no ACL, though.

An ACL is one of those things you don't really miss till you need it, then you just fall down and hurt for a bit. NBD.