Talk some shen into me

[origami_itto]

Not much to see on video. We're talking about the results of meditation.

May as well post a video of taking a vitamin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paYmVPy8z08




Those selling "vitamins" most of the time show "results of taking them, vs not taking them"

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,
http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition

神 (Shen) ­ Spirit as in spirited. Also mean god / spirit in general usage but usually not in martial arts unless referring to spiritualism.
Harmonizing Shen, Yi and Qi is the core practice of Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.

神明 (Shen Ming) ­ Supreme understanding. While Shen is usually translated as god or spirit, this term generally does not have any spiritual connotation.
Some translators translate this as “spiritual illumination” which in this translator’s opinion, is 不失之毫塵，差以千里 (off by a few inches and end up a thousand miles away).

You first.

[origami_itto]

Fwiw, whatever I've been doing the last six months it so is paying off. I've been pushing since 9am and having a phenomenal time. Some serious depth of talent out here this weekend.

[everything]

what kind of improvements do you notice? more easily in "flow state"? something more? hard to describe?

for shen, in every day Chinese jingshen 精神 can mean spirit, vigor, vitality, vivacity. so "team spirit", "fighting spirit", those other descriptions make sense to me. I don't know why (maybe I'm just at a low level) it's more the form and qi that affect me more than the other way around. for example, if you just hold "tree hugging" vs. if you hold "san ti" for even just 1 min, it will almost certainly feel different as far as your "shen".

for emptiness, "flow state" and spontaneity matches those Japanese/Tibetan/Buddhist five elements and "void". in neigong, we could get more esoteric with macrocosmic orbit, "universal qi", "qi of the Universe" etc. Sun Lutang seems to hint he got to that level or closer to that level. This would be the level the non-MA Taoists probably were trying to attain. Hence when Sun says multiple times neijia are of the same school, of "The Way", etc., this makes sense (theoretically to me, not practically). talk about "flow state" though.

[robert]

And of course the more I think about things the more I remember and discover.

“The form is like that of a falcon about to seize a rabbit,
and the Shen is like that of a cat about to catch a rat.”

I may be mistaken but I would bet the word translated as form there is Xin.

Interesting.

形如搏兔之鵠。神如捕鼠之貓。

形 - xing - to appear / to look / form / shape

鵠 - hu - is not hawk, but swan.

I would translate as Appear like a swan fighting a rabbit.

神 - shen - deity / soul / spirit / unusual / mysterious / lively / expressive / expression / look / CL: 個｜个 / (slang) awesome / amazing

I agree with the translation as spirit, but if the other line is translated as Appear like a swan fighting a rabbit then shen could also be translated as look - Look like a cat about to catch a rat. That's interesting because I picture a swan fighting a rabbit as being open and a cat catching a rat as being closed.

[everything]

I usually picture a cat moving very slowly and stealthily (at least in the cat's mind, lol) while stalking a mouse or whatever it sees in the field, woods, living room, whatnot.

[Bao]

To anyone and everyone, what is this emptiness?

It's the place where everything comes together by itself, happens by itself. Without you interfering.

[Appledog]

Right, so if someone attacks you from behind while you are taking a leak, the shen affects whether or not you end up killing them or just knocking them back?

But it's not about your state of mind per se?

That's sort of a sticking point in the theory for me, trying to sort out Shen from Xin

Like my impulse is to say that, perhaps, cultivated Shen may be what allows you to respond skillfully, but Xin colors the form of the response. To kill or knock back.

Tying that into the original question, the nature of the mind set held during cultivation affects your own default posture and could be the determining factor in which outcome you choose.

So we train Wu wei, but at a certain point there must be an intention. We are faced with a situation and respond with something, even if that is to do nothing but yield.

Well then it seems to me that shen is like a cake which comes out of the oven. It's too late to change it with your xin or your yi, once it's been baked in. Xin is what kind of person you are -- i.e. do you want to learn aikido or thai kickboxing. Xin is like xin tai (mindset). Yi is like yi nian which is your conscious decision to train today or to stay in bed. So there's predisposition and decision. Once you do the training however, if you always are angry and always train to hurt people, then you will end up being angry and hurting people when you fight or you won't be using your training. Once it's baked in and those kinds of skills become an automatic response to certain kinds of attacks, you can hurt people without even knowing what you are doing. This can be difficult to fix but of course, there are ways.

[windwalker]

To anyone and everyone, what is this emptiness?

It's the place where everything comes together by itself, happens by itself. Without you interfering.

depends doesn't it

Following the thread "somewhat" most of which seems kind of confused to me....

Some when asked to clarify something speak of "mediation" others talk of

"if someone attacks you from behind while you are taking a leak"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTIqtLa35kc

If you can do what is shown, should be no problem..."leak on"


Asked for clips of those posting, and told I should post one mine first....

Actually I have thought about it but feel it as with other clips of other people "notable masters" demoing the same things.
Kinda pointless...

The point would be ?

My point in asking was to offer those posting to a chance to show their thoughts and skill sets of what they post on....
Whether I or anyone agrees with it or not it would help to clarify their writing .

yi, qi, shen internal

mind, inner power, spirit

Gǔ, pi, jen outer power

bone, skin, tendon

A distinction used by my teacher and his group...Helped in understanding practices, what was being worked on or developed...
The same movement depending on focus could be observed with the "result" and "skill set" depending on practice be completely different.

None of which can be done, "for the most part" with out coming to some type of understanding of what many write about....

As for emptiness / spirit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8LLs5ti7_8&t=652s


He talks of emptiness, the interchange between mind and body.

8:53

He talks of directly hitting with is spirit

11:57

So tell me, please, learned fistians...

How do you understand, talk about, cultivate, and use Shen in your practice?

FWIW it wasn't something that one could explain but could be demoed and felt...
as shown in the clip....

[origami_itto]

I mean if I spoke Chinese I'm sure that would clear things up.

To be clear I'm not talking about knocking people back with force of mind, though trembling and stammering and blushing seem easy enough to achieve lol.

What I'm talking about is cultivating a mindset and trying to understand Shen at a level far below the alleged li Kong jin.

I don't know how to video that.

[origami_itto]

And of course the more I think about things the more I remember and discover.

“The form is like that of a falcon about to seize a rabbit,
and the Shen is like that of a cat about to catch a rat.”

I may be mistaken but I would bet the word translated as form there is Xin.

Interesting.

形如搏兔之鵠。神如捕鼠之貓。

形 - xing - to appear / to look / form / shape

鵠 - hu - is not hawk, but swan.

I would translate as Appear like a swan fighting a rabbit.

神 - shen - deity / soul / spirit / unusual / mysterious / lively / expressive / expression / look / CL: 個｜个 / (slang) awesome / amazing

I agree with the translation as spirit, but if the other line is translated as Appear like a swan fighting a rabbit then shen could also be translated as look - Look like a cat about to catch a rat. That's interesting because I picture a swan fighting a rabbit as being open and a cat catching a rat as being closed.

So xing is not Xin.

I've never seen a swan fight a rabbit so not sure what that's supposed to feel like.

[Quigga]

Windwalker nice post

Xing is shape
Xin is heart
Obviously your heart has a shape
Heart isn't empty yet isn't biggest mind there is

Heart is transforming and distributing energy as a base function, with axiom 1) all are connected on all levels - one big organism or orgasm, lol

This base function is cultivated alongside increased purity and clarity of small mind, or of the Xin that has the outer layer of Xing enveloping it.

-start training one, automatically start accompanied process-

Xing can be manipulated. Yet that normal conscious interaction will always stay on the level of actively using Yi - not being completely natural

The mechanism that is grasped when learning to shape Xing is more important than the exact Xing itself - axiom 2) part of being healthy means having authority over your immediate and intimate self as well as surroundings

The stretch in the body system is biggest when inflated with energy, meaning Qi. This includes filling the organs and cavities (no homo) with fluid coming from emptiness. At some point it becomes tangible, very sticky. No homo...

When ball is inflated with air (popular Peng picture)-
Press on surface
How does material inside and outside behave

Outside rubber is yielding elastically with potential rebound force coming from springiness of rubber itself around the whole sphere + air or Energy being a semi compressible substance and being pushed or compressed ---> need Sung training here

Air never becomes solid except through photosynthesis or cryo technology
So very much like a fluid

Heart rising
What is left when having witnessed the body

We drop drop drop (it like it's hot)
But what remains when much has been dropped, what are we looking for
Like being near a river and searching for gold nuggets
Naturally occurring lightness that doesn't bother us or seems special or different than usual is the result

Bouyancy BABY

Why cultivate Heart
Huge part is nourishing something inside you that is uncorruptibly good
Results in very nice smooth continuous access to Dao via Shen as there is always something to fall back inside of you
Makes it very easy to unlearn and let go
Like a small flame burning off dead wood around it
Axiom 3) Be good and empty in an effortless way, yet understand that it results from at least some degree of cultivation, like a garden one feels comfortable in

You are still there
Ego death is huuuuuuge misunderstanding, very harmful
Ego cultivation yes - meaning Heart cultivation

Writing is foundation for future vids ;-)

[robert]

I've never seen a swan fight a rabbit so not sure what that's supposed to feel like.

He's not a rabbit, but conveys the idea.



or a dog.

[Quigga]

Fuck this burning hot flame in my chest right now
Like a big fueled forge
Isn't it enough that the thing is being forged, hammer banging against steel
Does the crafter need to promote his name or give his work a name
Yet what is a tool without a happy user and a product without a happy customer
Useless

Anyway

Swan rabbit/dog
Crane snake
Obv the same

Even if one may appear majestic, the big wings can be wounded easily via sharp force or poison
Sometimes the deal is settled only after obvious combat is over

Easiest way to deal with swans is to run at them with open arms wide in the air and scream loud as shit. It works, tested and proven. Make sure you know how to scream first

As you can see, there is no altercation in the absence of dualistic dynamics

Yet without altercation there is nothing at all

The changing between Yin Yang as a whole is more important than either one separately

Also I agree with wayne

[Doc Stier]

An alternative perspective is to describe Shen in more modern terminology as Creative Spiritual Consciousness.

From this point of view, as part of the greater Cosmic Consciousness (Shen) of the Tao, personal consciousness (shen) is the source of focused intention (yi), which directs source energy (yuan chi), which in turn manifests physical shape, form and movement (tao-lu), which always reflects the original state of personal consciousness, thus completing a full cycle that emanates from and returns to Creative Spiritual Consciousness (Shen).

This process is constantly repeated throughout each day of every person's lifetime.

[origami_itto]

So Doc sort of tying this in to the original question, and with a whole weekend of conversation in my head...

Does the... Quality? Of Shen produced from alchemical refinement produce a greater ability to manifest the will in physical, mental, and emotional reality?