Blending western equipment

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:45 am

So I'm gathering some training toys and found this little gem at goodwill.
Image

The grips are connected to a fly wheel with adjustable tension.

What sorts of exercises do you think I could do with this that would serve Taijiquan Shen Fa?

What about stretchy rubber bands?

Kettlebells?

Master Choi has a free weight routine that most Western folks would consider cheating since he is specifically recruiting extra muscles to build whole body strength instead of isolating muscles and then trying to reintegrate them effectively.

I tend to favor this kind of engagement since it makes a lot of sense to me. I used the idea when I was studying xingyi by fastening stretchy bands to the wall and then performing the elements against that horizontal resistance.

Thoughts?
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby everything on Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:43 am

For whole body “functional Li”, KBs esp swings and TGU.
Pavel here is an expert.
StrongFirst.com is a great forum.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 6648
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:03 am

origami_itto wrote:What sorts of exercises do you think I could do with this that would serve Taijiquan Shen Fa? Kettlebells?...Thoughts?


My thoughts are that you're a hypocrite. In the thread about Dr.Yang's retreat doing serious jibengong, you went out of your way to say exercises like these, ESPECIALLY KETTLEBELLS, were a complete and utter waste of time yet here you are now expecting people to spoon-feed you info.

Did you forget writing this?
origami_itto wrote:My point is that your thesis is invalid, Formosa. Those exercises may give you something but that something is not necessary for high level taijiquan ability or self defense. It may be critical for putting on a good show for the ticket holders, may be a good idea for general fitness, but it adds nothing to legitimate taijiquan skills. I mean, you do you, boo. So long as you're getting what you want or of your training good for you. I could care less, personally. I just don't see the value in it for my goals.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29312&sid=4b8807343e0a64064a54654dc67ec9e2
So hey boo, in the process of you-being-you, why don't you try being consistent for longer than 5:00, m'kay? If you want recommendations, why not go back to the thread you derailed with your nonsense and start there?
User avatar
Formosa Neijia
Great Old One
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:10 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:23 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:
origami_itto wrote:What sorts of exercises do you think I could do with this that would serve Taijiquan Shen Fa? Kettlebells?...Thoughts?


My thoughts are that you're a hypocrite. In the thread about Dr.Yang's retreat doing serious jibengong, you went out of your way to say exercises like these, ESPECIALLY KETTLEBELLS, were a complete and utter waste of time yet here you are now expecting people to spoon-feed you info.

Did you forget writing this?
origami_itto wrote:My point is that your thesis is invalid, Formosa. Those exercises may give you something but that something is not necessary for high level taijiquan ability or self defense. It may be critical for putting on a good show for the ticket holders, may be a good idea for general fitness, but it adds nothing to legitimate taijiquan skills. I mean, you do you, boo. So long as you're getting what you want or of your training good for you. I could care less, personally. I just don't see the value in it for my goals.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29312&sid=4b8807343e0a64064a54654dc67ec9e2
So hey boo, in the process of you-being-you, why don't you try being consistent for longer than 5:00, m'kay? If you want recommendations, why not go back to the thread you derailed with your nonsense and start there?


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-Not Aristotle


I'm asking for thoughts on how to use equipment in a way that doesn't work against Taijiquan conditioning which I still maintain is fundamentally different than traditional strength training.

But even saying that, we learn, we grow, and just because I have an opinion doesn't mean I am obliged to maintain that opinion for any length of time, five minutes or five years, good practice is good practice.

There are masters that have their students carry their bags because they are so focused on cultivating yin, that drape themselves in linen with a parasol to keep from soaking up that yang sun.

I think playing with my kids and dogs is more important than cultivating that depth of Taijiquan skill and I'm not getting enough push hands on a regular basis to keep those tissues developing as quickly as they can.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Appledog on Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:46 am

I think it's still too new for this thread again. The short answer is you can't do this, and trying to sit and say 'but' is not going to play out.

The closest you will get are weapons forms, which have questionable use in and of themselves -- there is no authentic sword form in Tai Chi for example.

If you are looking for variety in the solo forms you should learn a little more, maybe pick up some xingyi or bagua and play off that for a while. Take your mind off things and let things settle down. Maybe re interpret how you do your taichi using xingyi training ideas, still keeping it tai chi. If OTOH you are having issues with finding push hands partners yes that is a very serious problem, one of the only solutions is to start teaching or to start a push hands group but you can also consider asking around a few local schools to see if they already have something like that. I know four different places in Toronto for example where I can go for push hands private or group instruction.

Beyond that it's about whether or not you can stand the loneliness. There is a concept called mothering which is a kind of bitterness. Just rambling... anyways...
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:02 am

Appledog wrote:I think it's still too new for this thread again. The short answer is you can't do this, and trying to sit and say 'but' is not going to play out.

The closest you will get are weapons forms, which have questionable use in and of themselves -- there is no authentic sword form in Tai Chi for example.

If you are looking for variety in the solo forms you should learn a little more, maybe pick up some xingyi or bagua and play off that for a while. Take your mind off things and let things settle down. Maybe re interpret how you do your taichi using xingyi training ideas, still keeping it tai chi. If OTOH you are having issues with finding push hands partners yes that is a very serious problem, one of the only solutions is to start teaching or to start a push hands group but you can also consider asking around a few local schools to see if they already have something like that. I know four different places in Toronto for example where I can go for push hands private or group instruction.

Beyond that it's about whether or not you can stand the loneliness. There is a concept called mothering which is a kind of bitterness. Just rambling... anyways...


Yeah I've got a pretty long backlog of forms to learn at this point lol.

Students are on the near horizon, but getting them to the point where I'm really getting anything out of pushing with them will take some time. I can drive about an hour to meet up with the closest players that would be able to provide enough challenge to get a workout. Not always practical as a Daddy.

For an example of what I'm talking about here consider bagau "drilling palm" which I use as a warm-up and self defense technique. One hand goes up along the centerline as the palm turns the pinky edge towards my face and the other hand presses down.

I can do 100 of those with my body weight or 100 with the new toy set on light resistance and get all kinds of feedback about how I'm using my body. If I'm using brute strength it will have a much different effect if I'm using, for lack of a better word "Jin" to power the movement.

Same with the Xingyi elements and the resistance bands. Just adds that little bit of something extra that forces correct technique.

I also like holding static postures under load to assist with stretching and opening the joints.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby robert on Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:33 am

origami_itto wrote:What sorts of exercises do you think I could do with this that would serve Taijiquan Shen Fa?

Thoughts?

With your back to it, in a bow stance, grip in one hand, weight back, shift the weight forward without moving the arm. Use the legs to shift the weight forward, this is like pushing. Do this on both sides.
Reverse the above. Facing it, in a bow stance, grip in one hand, weight forward, shift the weight backward without moving the arm. Use the legs to shift the weight backward, this is pulling. Do this on both sides.
Facing it, in a bow stance, grip in one hand, turn the waist from one side to another. Switch up the bow stance.
Stand sideways to it and do the upper or lower hand of cloud hands.
Focus on using neijin; the legs and waist, stay loose, relaxed and connected.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby everything on Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:54 pm

origami_itto wrote:that doesn't work against Taijiquan conditioning which I still maintain is fundamentally different than traditional strength training.


I would say the same ... so this question boils down to: does train li interfere with your train jin? At a general level, we have to use li in every day "functional" things. Run with the kids and dogs. Carry groceries. Etc. I try to have some "coordinated li" in sports. I try to do qigong 101 as a pre-req of learning "jin". Logistically, they are separated, and it seems like the brain/body know that. But what if the question is at the really sport/art-specific level: I'm training li for the exact same use case that I wanted to train jin for? So for example, instead of "fang song" to learn to "fa jin" and move our training partner as if a push, we just revert to a "push" done as if pushing heavy furniture or some heavy shove as if dislodging some heavy stuck object? I think that's what you're really getting at, and it seems more difficult to resolve (in writing/theory and in practice). I'm avoiding that question in actual practice.
Last edited by everything on Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 6648
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Appledog on Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:05 pm

origami_itto wrote:For an example of what I'm talking about here consider bagau "drilling palm" which I use as a warm-up and self defense technique. One hand goes up along the centerline as the palm turns the pinky edge towards my face and the other hand presses down.

I can do 100 of those with my body weight or 100 with the new toy set on light resistance and get all kinds of feedback about how I'm using my body. If I'm using brute strength it will have a much different effect if I'm using, for lack of a better word "Jin" to power the movement.

Same with the Xingyi elements and the resistance bands. Just adds that little bit of something extra that forces correct technique.

I also like holding static postures under load to assist with stretching and opening the joints.


Well that might be a good idea. The worst thing you could do is use the equipment to provide some of the load you would experience when fighting, such as using a makiwara to toughen up the hands a bit. But I don't mean by damaging them to toughen them exactly. More like getting used to the stresses and pressures of actual combat. To know your limits. Or else bad things could happen like breaking a metacarpal.

Using load to train is a kind of qing gong iirc.
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby everything on Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:16 pm

what kind of load for the static postures? weighted vest? those wing chun rings (always wanted to get those)?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 6648
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:43 pm

everything wrote:what kind of load for the static postures? weighted vest? those wing chun rings (always wanted to get those)?

15 lb kettlebell and a weight bar, can't remember how heavy it is, standard.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:02 pm

origami_itto wrote:I'm asking for thoughts on how to use equipment in a way that doesn't work against Taijiquan conditioning which I still maintain is fundamentally different than traditional strength training.


But boo, I hear Alex Dong's qigong set is the bomb and no one needs anything more than that. You aren't saying that Dong's qigong set is inadequate and needs to be supplemented by some home fitness junk you bought at goodwill for $10.00, are you boo?

And what exactly do you think you know about traditional strength training? Because from what you've written, I'm guessing next to nothing.

Master Choi has a free weight routine that most Western folks would consider cheating since he is specifically recruiting extra muscles to build whole body strength instead of isolating muscles and then trying to reintegrate them effectively.


Wow, that's awesome! No one has ever done anything like that before! You should go visit Madame Zora's and have her conduct a séance to contact Choi then let us know what you find out.

In the meantime, I highly recommend this to you for working on your "taiji shenfa."
User avatar
Formosa Neijia
Great Old One
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:10 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:09 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I'm asking for thoughts on how to use equipment in a way that doesn't work against Taijiquan conditioning which I still maintain is fundamentally different than traditional strength training.


But boo, I hear Alex Dong's qigong set is the bomb and no one needs anything more than that. You aren't saying that Dong's qigong set is inadequate and needs to be supplemented by some home fitness junk you bought at goodwill for $10.00, are you boo?

And what exactly do you think you know about traditional strength training? Because from what you've written, I'm guessing next to nothing.

Master Choi has a free weight routine that most Western folks would consider cheating since he is specifically recruiting extra muscles to build whole body strength instead of isolating muscles and then trying to reintegrate them effectively.


Wow, that's awesome! No one has ever done anything like that before! You should go visit Madame Zora's and have her conduct a séance to contact Choi then let us know what you find out.

In the meantime, I highly recommend this to you for working on your "taiji shenfa."


You seem like a real peach.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Appledog on Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:39 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:And what exactly do you think you know about traditional strength training?


Image

It's possible to do the training, but in any case it is up to your teacher. You choose to follow a teacher and not necessarily a style. So ultimately I think you must ask your teacher.
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:18 pm

Appledog wrote:
Formosa Neijia wrote:And what exactly do you think you know about traditional strength training?


Image

It's possible to do the training, but in any case it is up to your teacher. You choose to follow a teacher and not necessarily a style. So ultimately I think you must ask your teacher.



we used what were called "wood locks" wood ones were expensive...
you can make some using cement in 1gal. milk containers


I had asked Chin, Shifu about using "kettle bells". compared to wood locks,,,
He mentioned they were different even though superficially the training looks the same.

Maybe " Formosa Neijia " could share his thoughts on this....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUoJ9RkaQnw&t=45s

One can cut up car springs, weld the ends together making "iron rings". Much cheaper then buying the brass ones...
Need to make sure the welds are grinded down, otherwise they can rip the skin...don't ask me how I know :P


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi4UXqAIM0I
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
If you cannot find the truth right where you are,
where else do you expect to find it?

Dogan
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests