Blending western equipment

[origami_itto]

So I'm gathering some training toys and found this little gem at goodwill.


The grips are connected to a fly wheel with adjustable tension.

What sorts of exercises do you think I could do with this that would serve Taijiquan Shen Fa?

What about stretchy rubber bands?

Kettlebells?

Master Choi has a free weight routine that most Western folks would consider cheating since he is specifically recruiting extra muscles to build whole body strength instead of isolating muscles and then trying to reintegrate them effectively.

I tend to favor this kind of engagement since it makes a lot of sense to me. I used the idea when I was studying xingyi by fastening stretchy bands to the wall and then performing the elements against that horizontal resistance.

Thoughts?

[everything]

For whole body “functional Li”, KBs esp swings and TGU.
Pavel here is an expert.
StrongFirst.com is a great forum.

[Formosa Neijia]

What sorts of exercises do you think I could do with this that would serve Taijiquan Shen Fa? Kettlebells?...Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you're a hypocrite. In the thread about Dr.Yang's retreat doing serious jibengong, you went out of your way to say exercises like these, ESPECIALLY KETTLEBELLS, were a complete and utter waste of time yet here you are now expecting people to spoon-feed you info.

Did you forget writing this?

My point is that your thesis is invalid, Formosa. Those exercises may give you something but that something is not necessary for high level taijiquan ability or self defense. It may be critical for putting on a good show for the ticket holders, may be a good idea for general fitness, but it adds nothing to legitimate taijiquan skills. I mean, you do you, boo. So long as you're getting what you want or of your training good for you. I could care less, personally. I just don't see the value in it for my goals.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29312&sid=4b8807343e0a64064a54654dc67ec9e2
So hey boo, in the process of you-being-you, why don't you try being consistent for longer than 5:00, m'kay? If you want recommendations, why not go back to the thread you derailed with your nonsense and start there?

[origami_itto]

What sorts of exercises do you think I could do with this that would serve Taijiquan Shen Fa? Kettlebells?...Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you're a hypocrite. In the thread about Dr.Yang's retreat doing serious jibengong, you went out of your way to say exercises like these, ESPECIALLY KETTLEBELLS, were a complete and utter waste of time yet here you are now expecting people to spoon-feed you info.

Did you forget writing this?

My point is that your thesis is invalid, Formosa. Those exercises may give you something but that something is not necessary for high level taijiquan ability or self defense. It may be critical for putting on a good show for the ticket holders, may be a good idea for general fitness, but it adds nothing to legitimate taijiquan skills. I mean, you do you, boo. So long as you're getting what you want or of your training good for you. I could care less, personally. I just don't see the value in it for my goals.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29312&sid=4b8807343e0a64064a54654dc67ec9e2
So hey boo, in the process of you-being-you, why don't you try being consistent for longer than 5:00, m'kay? If you want recommendations, why not go back to the thread you derailed with your nonsense and start there?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-Not Aristotle

I'm asking for thoughts on how to use equipment in a way that doesn't work against Taijiquan conditioning which I still maintain is fundamentally different than traditional strength training.

But even saying that, we learn, we grow, and just because I have an opinion doesn't mean I am obliged to maintain that opinion for any length of time, five minutes or five years, good practice is good practice.

There are masters that have their students carry their bags because they are so focused on cultivating yin, that drape themselves in linen with a parasol to keep from soaking up that yang sun.

I think playing with my kids and dogs is more important than cultivating that depth of Taijiquan skill and I'm not getting enough push hands on a regular basis to keep those tissues developing as quickly as they can.

[Appledog]

I think it's still too new for this thread again. The short answer is you can't do this, and trying to sit and say 'but' is not going to play out.

The closest you will get are weapons forms, which have questionable use in and of themselves -- there is no authentic sword form in Tai Chi for example.

If you are looking for variety in the solo forms you should learn a little more, maybe pick up some xingyi or bagua and play off that for a while. Take your mind off things and let things settle down. Maybe re interpret how you do your taichi using xingyi training ideas, still keeping it tai chi. If OTOH you are having issues with finding push hands partners yes that is a very serious problem, one of the only solutions is to start teaching or to start a push hands group but you can also consider asking around a few local schools to see if they already have something like that. I know four different places in Toronto for example where I can go for push hands private or group instruction.

Beyond that it's about whether or not you can stand the loneliness. There is a concept called mothering which is a kind of bitterness. Just rambling... anyways...

[origami_itto]

I think it's still too new for this thread again. The short answer is you can't do this, and trying to sit and say 'but' is not going to play out.

The closest you will get are weapons forms, which have questionable use in and of themselves -- there is no authentic sword form in Tai Chi for example.

If you are looking for variety in the solo forms you should learn a little more, maybe pick up some xingyi or bagua and play off that for a while. Take your mind off things and let things settle down. Maybe re interpret how you do your taichi using xingyi training ideas, still keeping it tai chi. If OTOH you are having issues with finding push hands partners yes that is a very serious problem, one of the only solutions is to start teaching or to start a push hands group but you can also consider asking around a few local schools to see if they already have something like that. I know four different places in Toronto for example where I can go for push hands private or group instruction.

Beyond that it's about whether or not you can stand the loneliness. There is a concept called mothering which is a kind of bitterness. Just rambling... anyways...

Yeah I've got a pretty long backlog of forms to learn at this point lol.

Students are on the near horizon, but getting them to the point where I'm really getting anything out of pushing with them will take some time. I can drive about an hour to meet up with the closest players that would be able to provide enough challenge to get a workout. Not always practical as a Daddy.

For an example of what I'm talking about here consider bagau "drilling palm" which I use as a warm-up and self defense technique. One hand goes up along the centerline as the palm turns the pinky edge towards my face and the other hand presses down.

I can do 100 of those with my body weight or 100 with the new toy set on light resistance and get all kinds of feedback about how I'm using my body. If I'm using brute strength it will have a much different effect if I'm using, for lack of a better word "Jin" to power the movement.

Same with the Xingyi elements and the resistance bands. Just adds that little bit of something extra that forces correct technique.

I also like holding static postures under load to assist with stretching and opening the joints.

[robert]

What sorts of exercises do you think I could do with this that would serve Taijiquan Shen Fa?

Thoughts?

With your back to it, in a bow stance, grip in one hand, weight back, shift the weight forward without moving the arm. Use the legs to shift the weight forward, this is like pushing. Do this on both sides.
Reverse the above. Facing it, in a bow stance, grip in one hand, weight forward, shift the weight backward without moving the arm. Use the legs to shift the weight backward, this is pulling. Do this on both sides.
Facing it, in a bow stance, grip in one hand, turn the waist from one side to another. Switch up the bow stance.
Stand sideways to it and do the upper or lower hand of cloud hands.
Focus on using neijin; the legs and waist, stay loose, relaxed and connected.

[everything]

that doesn't work against Taijiquan conditioning which I still maintain is fundamentally different than traditional strength training.

I would say the same ... so this question boils down to: does train li interfere with your train jin? At a general level, we have to use li in every day "functional" things. Run with the kids and dogs. Carry groceries. Etc. I try to have some "coordinated li" in sports. I try to do qigong 101 as a pre-req of learning "jin". Logistically, they are separated, and it seems like the brain/body know that. But what if the question is at the really sport/art-specific level: I'm training li for the exact same use case that I wanted to train jin for? So for example, instead of "fang song" to learn to "fa jin" and move our training partner as if a push, we just revert to a "push" done as if pushing heavy furniture or some heavy shove as if dislodging some heavy stuck object? I think that's what you're really getting at, and it seems more difficult to resolve (in writing/theory and in practice). I'm avoiding that question in actual practice.

[Appledog]

For an example of what I'm talking about here consider bagau "drilling palm" which I use as a warm-up and self defense technique. One hand goes up along the centerline as the palm turns the pinky edge towards my face and the other hand presses down.

I can do 100 of those with my body weight or 100 with the new toy set on light resistance and get all kinds of feedback about how I'm using my body. If I'm using brute strength it will have a much different effect if I'm using, for lack of a better word "Jin" to power the movement.

Same with the Xingyi elements and the resistance bands. Just adds that little bit of something extra that forces correct technique.

I also like holding static postures under load to assist with stretching and opening the joints.

Well that might be a good idea. The worst thing you could do is use the equipment to provide some of the load you would experience when fighting, such as using a makiwara to toughen up the hands a bit. But I don't mean by damaging them to toughen them exactly. More like getting used to the stresses and pressures of actual combat. To know your limits. Or else bad things could happen like breaking a metacarpal.

Using load to train is a kind of qing gong iirc.

[everything]

what kind of load for the static postures? weighted vest? those wing chun rings (always wanted to get those)?

[origami_itto]

what kind of load for the static postures? weighted vest? those wing chun rings (always wanted to get those)?

15 lb kettlebell and a weight bar, can't remember how heavy it is, standard.

[Formosa Neijia]

I'm asking for thoughts on how to use equipment in a way that doesn't work against Taijiquan conditioning which I still maintain is fundamentally different than traditional strength training.

But boo, I hear Alex Dong's qigong set is the bomb and no one needs anything more than that. You aren't saying that Dong's qigong set is inadequate and needs to be supplemented by some home fitness junk you bought at goodwill for $10.00, are you boo?

And what exactly do you think you know about traditional strength training? Because from what you've written, I'm guessing next to nothing.

Master Choi has a free weight routine that most Western folks would consider cheating since he is specifically recruiting extra muscles to build whole body strength instead of isolating muscles and then trying to reintegrate them effectively.

Wow, that's awesome! No one has ever done anything like that before! You should go visit Madame Zora's and have her conduct a séance to contact Choi then let us know what you find out.

In the meantime, I highly recommend this to you for working on your "taiji shenfa."

[origami_itto]

I'm asking for thoughts on how to use equipment in a way that doesn't work against Taijiquan conditioning which I still maintain is fundamentally different than traditional strength training.

But boo, I hear Alex Dong's qigong set is the bomb and no one needs anything more than that. You aren't saying that Dong's qigong set is inadequate and needs to be supplemented by some home fitness junk you bought at goodwill for $10.00, are you boo?

And what exactly do you think you know about traditional strength training? Because from what you've written, I'm guessing next to nothing.

Master Choi has a free weight routine that most Western folks would consider cheating since he is specifically recruiting extra muscles to build whole body strength instead of isolating muscles and then trying to reintegrate them effectively.

Wow, that's awesome! No one has ever done anything like that before! You should go visit Madame Zora's and have her conduct a séance to contact Choi then let us know what you find out.

In the meantime, I highly recommend this to you for working on your "taiji shenfa."

You seem like a real peach.

[Appledog]

And what exactly do you think you know about traditional strength training?

It's possible to do the training, but in any case it is up to your teacher. You choose to follow a teacher and not necessarily a style. So ultimately I think you must ask your teacher.

[windwalker]

And what exactly do you think you know about traditional strength training?

It's possible to do the training, but in any case it is up to your teacher. You choose to follow a teacher and not necessarily a style. So ultimately I think you must ask your teacher.

we used what were called "wood locks" wood ones were expensive...
you can make some using cement in 1gal. milk containers


I had asked Chin, Shifu about using "kettle bells". compared to wood locks,,,
He mentioned they were different even though superficially the training looks the same.

Maybe " Formosa Neijia " could share his thoughts on this....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUoJ9RkaQnw&t=45s

One can cut up car springs, weld the ends together making "iron rings". Much cheaper then buying the brass ones...
Need to make sure the welds are grinded down, otherwise they can rip the skin...don't ask me how I know


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi4UXqAIM0I