Blending western equipment

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Bhassler on Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:17 pm

origami_itto wrote:Muscle tone is a byproduct of conditioning.
Some people speak about arms like iron wrapped in cotton. If you've ever met somebody like that they probably had pretty good Taijiquan.


I've met people like that with no taijiquan, and I've met people with arms like laser cut steel that had phenomenal taijiquan (and vice-versa). Muscle tone in the vernacular sense is a byproduct of conditioning, genetics, body composition, etc. In the sense of the amount of tonus in the muscle either at rest or in movement, it's primarily a function of the nervous system. In that regard, why do people think a grand total of a couple of minutes a week under maximal tension to stimulate a strength increase is going to over-ride several hours of taiji practice, not to mention all the other time just living life? That's where awareness, presence in the moment, or whatever else someone wants to call it comes in. If someone can't relax their body after a couple of kettlebell swings, they are unlikely to be able to relax when some goon tries to punch them in the face or bend their elbow the wrong way.

I'm not saying everyone should join a crossfit gym or train like a pro MMA fighter. I am saying that decades of experience and scientific research both agree that the notion that muscular/strength development will somehow inhibit sensory capacity and/or motor function to do other activities (like gongfu) is a myth. It does take time and metabolic resources, though, so people should be aware of their own capacity and decide how many rabbits they think they can chase at one time.
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Bhassler on Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:24 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The shape and weight distribution of the lama blocks is very specific
The stone lock is a whole different thing


I've found that to be the case with mace/gada swinging. The steel ones just aren't the same as the wood and concrete ones.

With regards to the cool traditional training implements in general, I've found some exercises that are fantastic for specific purposes relative to my practice, and others where I probably would have been better served just doing basic strength training, or some other form of practice.

This is talking about old time strongmen in the western tradition, but a lot of the same comments could apply:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKawUAB ... el=DanJohn
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:38 pm

Well the folks with tight muscles are usually about as hard to move around as a piece of driftwood IMHO.

Ymmv.

I experience a qualitative difference in my movement when I follow the principles I'm outlining. I was not able to experience or perform this until I'd reached a sufficient level of particular conditioning.

You may be different, the physics may work differently for you. Your body is likely conditioned differently as you've been following different practices.

What I'm describing isn't easily verifiable, you'd have to commit a substantial amount of time to following a completely different approach to training before you saw even a glimmer of the difference I'm describing.

The difference is physical and psychological and largely passive.

Or maybe not, maybe you can learn it in five minutes...

I don't expect you or anyone to change everything about their approach to their gongfu based on the word of some random on the Internet. Honestly, I don't care how or what you train. If it works for you, great.

But in these discussions it's like we're looking at a color blind test and you're calling me an idiot for insisting there is a number in the circles. It's just funny to me.
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2962
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby phil b on Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:10 pm

My thoughts, FWIW...

I always cringe when I see posts of iron rings for Hung Gar. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, they are not about building strength. That is the lowest level of training you could get from the iron rings. Sadly, many mediocre teachers emigrated having learnt only that, and it has become gospel. Oh, and before anybody utters the following shite... they are not for fighting against swords, either.

Someone mentioned about steel wrapped in cotton arms and how they would have good taichi. Lord, save us from the ravings of the insane. In my Hung Gar days, we had a quite little librarian fella with arms like lead. The seniors would queue up to three star with him. His kung fu was crap, but he had been gifted with arms so hard they could make a grown man wince.

As for Dave (Formosa Neijia), he knows what he is talking about. He has trained with some top guys in the fitness industry. He almost singlehandely built the Kettlebell industry in Taiwan. I was fortunate enough to train with him and his trainers. In my personal opinion, well executed kettlebell training will improve your kung fu, taichi, or whatever.
Just your average office worker :p
phil b
Anjing
 
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:05 am

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:15 pm

It just goes to show how few people actually understand Taijiquan.

or maybe I'm wrong and it's just like everything else...
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2962
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Bhassler on Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:22 pm

origami_itto wrote:Well the folks with tight muscles are usually about as hard to move around as a piece of driftwood IMHO.

Ymmv.

I experience a qualitative difference in my movement when I follow the principles I'm outlining. I was not able to experience or perform this until I'd reached a sufficient level of particular conditioning.

You may be different, the physics may work differently for you. Your body is likely conditioned differently as you've been following different practices.

What I'm describing isn't easily verifiable, you'd have to commit a substantial amount of time to following a completely different approach to training before you saw even a glimmer of the difference I'm describing.

The difference is physical and psychological and largely passive.

Or maybe not, maybe you can learn it in five minutes...

I don't expect you or anyone to change everything about their approach to their gongfu based on the word of some random on the Internet. Honestly, I don't care how or what you train. If it works for you, great.

But in these discussions it's like we're looking at a color blind test and you're calling me an idiot for insisting there is a number in the circles. It's just funny to me.


I'm not talking about you, personally, I'm talking about an idea that has been propagated throughout the taiji community for decades. I'm sorry if you see it as a personal attack, as that is not my intent. I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I will also continue to call it out when people make claims that are unsupportable by all existing knowledge of anatomy, physiology, and neurology. I also think it's worth noting that the map is not the territory, so folks can disagree rather strongly on the "why" or "how" of something even if the "what" is quite similar.

But, since this is the internet, I'm going to go ahead and say your shit is fake, and I challenge you to fight, but first you have to defeat my sect's gatekeeper, who is Ashida Kim.
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:34 pm

Bhassler wrote:
origami_itto wrote:Well the folks with tight muscles are usually about as hard to move around as a piece of driftwood IMHO.

Ymmv.

I experience a qualitative difference in my movement when I follow the principles I'm outlining. I was not able to experience or perform this until I'd reached a sufficient level of particular conditioning.

You may be different, the physics may work differently for you. Your body is likely conditioned differently as you've been following different practices.

What I'm describing isn't easily verifiable, you'd have to commit a substantial amount of time to following a completely different approach to training before you saw even a glimmer of the difference I'm describing.

The difference is physical and psychological and largely passive.

Or maybe not, maybe you can learn it in five minutes...

I don't expect you or anyone to change everything about their approach to their gongfu based on the word of some random on the Internet. Honestly, I don't care how or what you train. If it works for you, great.

But in these discussions it's like we're looking at a color blind test and you're calling me an idiot for insisting there is a number in the circles. It's just funny to me.


I'm not talking about you, personally, I'm talking about an idea that has been propagated throughout the taiji community for decades. I'm sorry if you see it as a personal attack, as that is not my intent. I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I will also continue to call it out when people make claims that are unsupportable by all existing knowledge of anatomy, physiology, and neurology. I also think it's worth noting that the map is not the territory, so folks can disagree rather strongly on the "why" or "how" of something even if the "what" is quite similar.

But, since this is the internet, I'm going to go ahead and say your shit is fake, and I challenge you to fight, but first you have to defeat my sect's gatekeeper, who is Ashida Kim.


Well I think a lot of these theories are supported by research but nobody has actually gone the distance. For instance the muscle tone issue... These are not controversial claims.

Most of what I see when folks of your opinion start talking is unidirectional external force that begins and ends and only delivers power equal to how much meat they can throw around to get behind the strike.

What I see different about Taijiquan is that most of the movement is simply to position and aim. When you're in position and sufficiently "empty" or "transparent" you can release the stored energy kind of one-inch-punch style but much smoother than that Bruce Lee nonsense. :)

I mean it's still the same physics but it's different mechanics and it relies on a lack of muscular contractions.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2962
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:39 pm

One thing I should address here is football players
I don’t know about other codes but rugby league and union lift huge weights
They are amongst the fittest sportsmen around
They also box and wrestle as part of their training
I’m sure NFL are the same because rugby players come back bulked up after they have played NFL
In fact they have to trim down to regain their speed
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4427
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:23 pm

Wood locks

Image

http://tibetanhopgar.com/

wayne hansen wrote:
The shape and weight distribution of the lama blocks is very specific
The stone lock is a whole different thing


Interesting

No longer sold, quite expensive at the time he was selling them...

Image

I had pressed him a little bit in talking with him about this...feeling like some the kettle bells could be used in the same way .
He mentioned they were different and wouldn't develop the same aspects...

Some of the older training devices a little hard to duplicate having the same impact on ones training, plum flower poles as he described them.

He mentioned falling off them while practicing movements or sparring, resulted in some bad groin injuries :o
The poles as he described them where not the "stumps" as commonly thought of or used..

Vary much ahead of his time in many ways....very sad his unexpected passing.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
If you cannot find the truth right where you are,
where else do you expect to find it?

Dogan
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 9400
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby everything on Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:08 pm

Origami, I think there’s a number in the circles as well.

I can’t do it, so it’s hard to talk about.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 6640
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:16 pm

everything wrote:Origami, I think there’s a number in the circles as well.

I can’t do it, so it’s hard to talk about.


A number in the circles?
It might be the wine but I don't know what you mean there.

Damo Mitchell talks a little about what I'm talking about here in the 9 common mistakes video he did.
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2962
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Formosa Neijia on Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:25 pm

phil b wrote:As for Dave (Formosa Neijia), he knows what he is talking about. He has trained with some top guys in the fitness industry. He almost singlehandely built the Kettlebell industry in Taiwan. I was fortunate enough to train with him and his trainers. In my personal opinion, well executed kettlebell training will improve your kung fu, taichi, or whatever.


Thanks, Phil. I miss our training days together more than you know.
Time to put the QUAN back in taijiQUAN. Time to put the YANG back in YANG style taiji.
User avatar
Formosa Neijia
Great Old One
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:10 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Formosa Neijia on Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:35 pm

origami_itto wrote:Master Choi has a free weight routine that most Western folks would consider cheating since he is specifically recruiting extra muscles to build whole body strength instead of isolating muscles and then trying to reintegrate them effectively....I am very likely ignorant and deluded, and you of course are absolutely correct.


I'm calling you out. You claim to know about "whole body strength" and apparently believe you have it or that it's important for taiji, etc. yet you dodge dealing with the issue at every turn.

Formosa Neijia wrote:
My female students swing 40, 44 and 48kg -- 100% of their body weight in some cases.

Here I'm snatching 24kg 100x straight in 5:00, showing not only whole-body connected power but the endurance and cardio (and fat loss) that such training brings.


That's me and my students. I'm putting myself out there so how about you put your money where your mouth is for once?
Questions:
1. is what's shown in those clips connected whole-body power or not?
2. if not, why not?
3. if it isn't, then what's being shown in those clips?
4. can you with your expertise in "taiji shenfa" do what's in those clips? if not, why not?
Last edited by Formosa Neijia on Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Time to put the QUAN back in taijiQUAN. Time to put the YANG back in YANG style taiji.
User avatar
Formosa Neijia
Great Old One
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:10 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby everything on Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:01 am

origami_itto wrote:
everything wrote:Origami, I think there’s a number in the circles as well.

I can’t do it, so it’s hard to talk about.


A number in the circles?
It might be the wine but I don't know what you mean there.

Damo Mitchell talks a little about what I'm talking about here in the 9 common mistakes video he did.


I think you said that about a colorblind test.

But in these discussions it's like we're looking at a color blind test and you're calling me an idiot for insisting there is a number in the circles. It's just funny to me.


Will check out that video
Last edited by everything on Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 6640
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:18 am

everything wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
everything wrote:Origami, I think there’s a number in the circles as well.

I can’t do it, so it’s hard to talk about.


A number in the circles?
It might be the wine but I don't know what you mean there.

Damo Mitchell talks a little about what I'm talking about here in the 9 common mistakes video he did.


I think you said that about a colorblind test.

But in these discussions it's like we're looking at a color blind test and you're calling me an idiot for insisting there is a number in the circles. It's just funny to me.


Will check out that video


Oh, duh, right, gotcha. :D

I was thinking of that example after the retreat, we were having a discussion similar to the one we had here about perception and our color palates and somebody was telling the story of his son bringing one of those up to him and saying "Dad, my sister says there's a number here but I think she's messing with me!"
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2962
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests