Blending western equipment

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Blending western equipment

Postby everything on Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:57 am

Ha yeah just to say either

You’re not crazy

Or

There are two of us who are crazy
And in a “cult”
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:11 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:

This is a good MA training to develop "vibration force". If your body can vibrate like a fish, none of your opponent's body contact throw will work on you. The moment that your opponent's back is touching on your chest(for hip throw, shoulder throw, leg lift throw, leg break throw, ...), you can bounce him away.

Image

This is my teacher's young brother's favor technique.



Here is one way to develop the vibration force.

I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Quigga on Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:10 pm

Looks cool Mr. Wang :-) Glad to see you're still on this board and chose to contribute. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:20 pm

Quigga wrote:Looks cool Mr. Wang :-) Glad to see you're still on this board and chose to contribute. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks! I try to stay away from abstract theory discussion. The equipment training is one of my favor subjects. I like to swing my KB 60 times daily. My KB is only 16 kg (35.2 lb). :-[

Formosa Neijia wrote:"whole body strength" ...

Here is a simple test.

Ask your opponent to use one arm to push on your shoulder. You resist hardly. If your resistance can

- bend your opponent's arm, he doesn't have it.
- push his body back without collapsing his body-arm structure, he has it.

The double heads is a good way to train whole body strength.

Last edited by johnwang on Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Quigga on Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:20 am

My heaviest kettlebell was 16kg or 20kg, can't remember it anymore. I also had a 12kg medicine ball, heaviest I could find on the internet at the time. Also a 8kg ball, and a 3kg ball. Gifted all of that to the Kick Thai Boxing studio I trained at the time, then I moved to another city.

Your double heads remind me of "oversized weapons practice". Like a huge spear, halberd, sabre. I used to practice with an empty barbell, doing all the movements one normally would with a wooden stick about one's height, in my teens. If I were to do this again, I'd start with 30 seconds of practice time max, but do like 5 or 10 sets a day, then slowly increasing time.

Formosa, are you in connection with Pavel Tstatsouline or Steve Maxwell? I ordered my first books from Pavel when I was 16. Learned a lot from them.
Last edited by Quigga on Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby cloudz on Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:05 am

Kettlebelss don't develop 'vibration force'.
Like other forms of strength/power training they will tend to help (with force..), but not required to shake or jerk your body violently. To do that better you will need to train exactly that - not a kettle bell swing..

I can see how you arrived at this as the vertical power open close type movement fits well.

So sure, maybe as a one off functional strength for one particular technique...... No but really this is such an inefficient way to think about strength training for martial arts nowadays. Think how ridiculous it would be or become if you needed a functional strength exercise for how many techniques now?

Come on. Change tact and get with the times!

Kettlebells simply develop POWER; I say power because that's what they are best for. You can get a bit stronger certainly but not the best tool for maximal strength gains. Also not very convenient for that either, as a tool.

the body method is interesting as it has that 'throwing' ballistic nature to it - that's the only real difference to say a dumbbell - that swing element.

As i said before though these swing exercise are not that broad and for other types of exercise there are better tools - especially for home workout.

I like it and would certainly pick mine up again - you can make good to great gains strength and conditioning wise with kettlebells.
Depends where you are starting and where you are going with it.
I think the best benefit is the conditioning of power output and strength/power endurance. FWIW.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby cloudz on Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:14 am

johnwang wrote:
The double heads is a good way to train whole body strength.



'good' meaning way worse for gaining strength than (barbell) deadlifts, squats and basically any other composite(whole body) barbell or dumbbell exercise ??

::)

I'm not saying there's nothing there, no benefit.. but
Looking at that wouldn't it be way better to just use a grappling dummy that weighs a fair bit - I know mine does.

It's not that I don't find any utility in 'functional strength', I just think it needs to be tailored, and in the case of older methods re-thought with modern sport science shaping the overall nature of a training program/ training system.

Of course none of that matters if you're just doing shit for fun or you just like it and prefer it personally.
Efficiency and higher end performance goals would dictate better overall training methodology/ system and protocol than the sort in that clip, let's be clear on that at least.

That particular exercise has nothing going for it - for me - poor for strength, poor for mobility, poor for motor control.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:43 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby cloudz on Fri Apr 08, 2022 6:38 am

I think the misconception in 'functional strength' is a belief that somehow a certain function requires a specific strength developed by matching the function - so bringing the two together has this innate logic or sense to it. Up to a point, maybe, depending.

However our minds and bodies can do better and they don't need that to function with strength in any way we want them to. It's strength moulded to function that serves us best not function moulded to/with its specific 'movement of strength'.

I think the heavy grappling dummy example is a good example of a good idea to serve 'functional strength'. It's fun for techniques, and will certainly serve any strength needs in them and also serves some need when no training partners around.

Generally speaking though
To make our strength function specific we mould it, we burn the movement pathways and we bring our strength gains to that function. These strength gains in pretty much any and every case are better served by sticking to the point which is strength. Be that whole body, muscle groups, planes of motion.

Trying to do them together, using resistance/ weighted tools only serves to limits both the strength gain(s), and the movement/technique gains (Motor Control).
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby cloudz on Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:57 am

Bhassler wrote:
I'm not talking about you, personally, I'm talking about an idea that has been propagated throughout the taiji community for decades. I'm sorry if you see it as a personal attack, as that is not my intent. I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I will also continue to call it out when people make claims that are unsupportable by all existing knowledge of anatomy, physiology, and neurology. I also think it's worth noting that the map is not the territory, so folks can disagree rather strongly on the "why" or "how" of something even if the "what" is quite similar.

But, since this is the internet, I'm going to go ahead and say your shit is fake, and I challenge you to fight, but first you have to defeat my sect's gatekeeper, who is Ashida Kim.


Hey, I've been where you are, making the same point about this idea on this very board.. IIRC it came up in a couple threads not long after Appledog showed up ;D
So certainly I couldn't agree more that strength training will help and improve martial arts of any kind and generally won't be harmful at all.

But as i don't believe in that absolute, neither can i believe in the one laying at the other end; Usually the first one goes something like.. any strength training will work against the skills, sensitivity and type of force(s) TCC seeks to develop - however it's framed. Usually some backdrop appealing to the awfulness of tension.. well ok fair enough.. sounds somewhat logical?

be strong, tense good
relax, tense bad!!
tai chi not rely on strength
strength bad!
:P

There are limits though and goal efficiency to consider. At some point focusing only on strength gain WILL cause detriment to mobility and motor control, important to a martial artist/ fighter. It could also lead you away rather than closer to your desired outcome. Your training may have inefficiency for example, hampering the process.

Things require balancing and aligning with the goals at hand. Martial artists need more besides strength, so while strength training isn't bad, it CAN be done badly.

I know you agree, and this isn't meant as any correction towards you, this is no doubt stating the obvious for most people. Just thought it was worth saying here, now.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby origami_itto on Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:25 am

So what I find interesting is that nobody will argue that you need to lift and train differently for bulk or sculpting, cutting or power, speed or strength. Performance athletes have to make decisions about where they want to invest their gains because they can counter each other if approached haphazardly.

But you make the same sort of suggestion about something that has historically been considered by the folks that can really do as something completely different and suddenly you're talking nonsense. As if magically all physical exertion produces the same tissue growth response and movement ability. You want to run faster, do some pushups, that'll help.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:41 am

be strong, tense good
relax, tense bad!!
tai chi not rely on strength
strength bad!
:P



Nice write up....

Done most if not more than some of the things posted...Even at one time started to go back to some of my older type of movement and training practices thinking I could blend them into my practice.

A 5yr experiment that didn't work out for various reasons.


Writings reflecting my thoughts now


汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,
http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition


一般理解,所謂勁兒,是把本身的神、意、氣集中到一點上,再把這個點運用到某個姿勢上
去。經過長期的鍛煉以後,就會逐漸擴大增長起來,變成一種力。這種力是經過鍛煉取得的,
是後天之拙力。這種力形式大、動量滯、變換遲、動的去路直,在技擊方面用起來,因身形動
作大,運動量較強,因此影響內氣的波動,易於浮躁。這近於長拳的練法和要求。

One theory to develop Jin (refined force) is to concentrate Shen, Yi and Qi in one point, and then use this point to drive the movements. After a long time of practice, the movements get bigger and carry a powerful force. Since this force is from diligent practice, it’s called the 後天 (After Heaven) "awkward" force.

The force is powerful, strong and heavy, react and change slowly, done with straight and direct movements.
When you perform martial movements, because the forms and movements are large, you exercise more vigorously.
This effects your Qi to move roughly, making it easy to be restless.
This is the training methods and requirements of the “Long Fist” (translator: i.e. external martial arts).


初練太極拳的人覺得太極拳的練法與上面的練法相似,其實不然。如果按照太極拳的理論要求
,經過一段時間的鍛煉,逐漸把理論與姿勢結合起來,就會很明顯地感覺出來,上面的練法和
要求是與太極拳不同的。練習太極拳的要求,是把本身的神、意、氣化合歸一,融合在一起,
形成一種輕靈圓活之勁兒。這種勁兒是以氣、意混之為主。它的本質是氣,對它的要求是空、
虛、散,而不是集聚的。這就是太極勁兒,又叫做先天勁兒。
When a person first learns Tai Chi Chuan, they may think that Tai Chi Chuan is practiced the same way as described above, but that is not true.

If they follow the requirements of the Tai Chi Chuan theory, after a period of training, combining their understanding of the theory and the form practices, they would begin to understand that the above written methods are not the same as those of the Tai Chi Chuan. Tai Chi Chuan requires that harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi into one, acting together, and become a Jin (refined force) that is light, agile, round and lively.

This type of Jin comes from the mixing of Qi and Yi. Its nature is Qi, and requires Empty, “Transparent,” and “dispersed”, and not gathered. This is Tai Chi Jin, also known as 先天(“Pre Heaven”) Jin.


Found what was written to be quite true, reflecting what my teacher had noted, and what I experienced during my time with him and the group.

It wasn't really about "strength"
rather it was about the absence of which may sound contrary,
if one thinks about it....

I tell those I work with...

You can only feel your own strength in the form of "resistance", "how much" energy is needed to move something...expressed physically by the body.

Different then affecting the mechanisms by which the body is said to move according to Chinese theory.
Mind leads the "qi" qi causes the movement acting through the muscle.



Neutralize, control, release, hit

Hua, na, fa, da

The hitting done directly according to level with what some might call "qi" felt as "jin" or power


If they follow the requirements of the Tai Chi Chuan theory, after a period of training, combining their understanding of the theory and the form practices, they would begin to understand that the above written methods are not the same as those of the Tai Chi Chuan.
Tai Chi Chuan requires that harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi into one, acting together, and become a Jin (refined force) that is light, agile, round and lively.




Accords to my experience and understanding...echoing my teacher and those in the group.

Not to say taiji is physically easy to do, quite the contrary to shape and and build the inner/outer alignments

allowing one to focus on "harmonizing" and then using this, quite difficult


others may find different.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby everything on Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:51 am

thanks a lot for explaining it. still nearly impossible for me to understand, lol.
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:58 am

everything wrote:thanks a lot for explaining it. still nearly impossible for me to understand, lol.


One can do it though training and practice, with out needing to have an understanding

Having an understanding, does not confer ability to do it....

although it can make things easier...also get in the way of "practice". :)
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby everything on Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:39 am

I should revise my comment to say: I cannot understand, and also I cannot do. :-( LOL. Appreciate the hints to go the right direction in any case.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: Blending western equipment

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:22 am

Quigga wrote:Formosa, are you in connection with Pavel Tstatsouline or Steve Maxwell? I ordered my first books from Pavel when I was 16. Learned a lot from them.

My main teachers were Steve Maxwell
Image
Image
This is me demoing for him while he taught us iron bridge from the iron vest material.
and Steve Cotter
Image
but I also did "soft style" under Valery Federenko and Valentin Egorov.

Steve Cotter was adamant about training taiji, xingyi, and bagua power through kettlebells because shen long tang shou dao was his background in everything. I made it my mission to perfect everything he and Maxwell have put out there and although I'm not there yet, the journey these two men set me on has done nothing but wonders for me and the 1000s of people I've taught. Maxwell is a 7th degree BB in BJJ, BTW. Cotter's Full kontact Kettlebells vol. 1&2 is on Youtube if people will just look and it's filled to the rim with details on how to use KB to build your kungfu, regardless of the whining by the naysayers in this thread.
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