The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Yeung on Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:12 pm

Standing passively to reduce the incoming force by one’s body weight, and move passively directed by the residual force or move actively to redirect the residual force. The residual force is defined as the difference between the incoming force and the body weight; Fr = Fin - Fbw. And there is no movement when Fbw ≥ Fin.

This sort of explains why Taijiquan is good for the prevention of fall, because standing passively maintains the flexibility of the joints of the lower limb: hip, knee, tibiofibular, ankle, and subtalar.

https://teachmeanatomy.info/lower-limb/joints/

Testing: There are many passive stances, just ask someone to do a frontal stance with feet apart at shoulder length and push the centre of mass from any direction in various intensities and observe the movements and stepping. Upon impact of the external force to the centre of mass, one should sensed the dispersion of that force to various parts of the body and move into alignment with the trajectory of that force.

Result: It works with anyone who learned the technique of standing passively after a few trials to build up one’s confidence.

Conclusion: Passive movements upon impact conformed to the theory of one move all move.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 786
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:43 pm

Master huangs 7 point push done in its original form not as it is taught today is the best exercise I have seen for what u describe
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4434
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Bhassler on Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:46 pm

The theory should be easy to verify:
Stand passively with your eyes closed.
Let someone slap you in the face as hard as they can.
Neutralize the slap using your "passive body".

Please video the experiment and report back...
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby LaoDan on Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:02 pm

I am not knowledgeable enough about muscle physiology to be considered as authoritative, but you may be interested in hearing some of my preliminary thoughts about TJQ and balance.

I think that the slow-twitch (static or tonic) muscles are the most important for structural stability and maintaining balance (correct me if I am wrong). To me, it seems like TJQ emphasizes the training of these muscles over training the fast-twitch (action or phasic) muscles. Zhan zhuang (站樁 standing like a post), and similar training, trains the slow-twitch muscles while relaxing the fast-twitch muscles, and the slow speed of the forms helps to emphasize these postural muscles that are not really trained through most other exercise practices. Because of this, TJQ improves one’s balance better than many other exercises. Note that many people seem to substitute using their phasic muscles during static postures instead of using their tonic muscles, and TJQ training helps to counteract this tendency.
LaoDan
Wuji
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:05 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Master huangs 7 point push done in its original form not as it is taught today is the best exercise I have seen for what u describe

The Liang system has "willowing" which is similar.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:24 pm

Is there film of willowing
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4434
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:49 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Is there film of willowing

I'd have to look.
The difference is that it's sort of free-form. There aren't prescribed places or a sequence to push, and there is absolutely no retaliation, it's all yielding. When I found out about the HSS-CMC connection I thought immediately that the 7 point push must have evolved out of this practice.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Bhassler on Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:28 pm

LaoDan wrote:I am not knowledgeable enough about muscle physiology to be considered as authoritative, but you may be interested in hearing some of my preliminary thoughts about TJQ and balance.

I think that the slow-twitch (static or tonic) muscles are the most important for structural stability and maintaining balance (correct me if I am wrong). To me, it seems like TJQ emphasizes the training of these muscles over training the fast-twitch (action or phasic) muscles. Zhan zhuang (站樁 standing like a post), and similar training, trains the slow-twitch muscles while relaxing the fast-twitch muscles, and the slow speed of the forms helps to emphasize these postural muscles that are not really trained through most other exercise practices. Because of this, TJQ improves one’s balance better than many other exercises. Note that many people seem to substitute using their phasic muscles during static postures instead of using their tonic muscles, and TJQ training helps to counteract this tendency.


This was a popular theory maybe 20-ish years ago. Haven't heard about it as much, lately, but it's definitely a familiar refrain.

As far as the muscles themselves, I think there's a very limited degree to which you can influence your default makeup of fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle fibers, it's more just an issue of optimizing what you have. There may be more recent research that says differently, but that's what I remember being the story last I heard.

While there's definitely a muscular training effect to the slow movement, I think it's more about precision and "filling in the gaps" relative to how accurately and comprehensively your brain/nervous system can pattern the movement.
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:16 pm

I believe it's less about the red muscle tissue and more about the tendons, fascia, and other elastic tissues wrapped around and within the muscles.

Properly positioned the body approaches a tensegrity structure. Outside force is distributed throughout the whole and the elastic force of the whole is expressed universally and in specific points.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby LaoDan on Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:46 pm

I can definitely see how ZZ could differentiate the muscle types. Less clear would be how tendons, ligaments, facia, and other elastic tissues would be specifically trained during ZZ.
LaoDan
Wuji
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:48 pm

ZZ is just one piece of the puzzle. It helps prepare the body for more effective work in the form. The form itself, played properly, is what develops the tissues.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Bao on Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:34 pm

I don’t know… if anything is about just being passive. The key in “standing passively” if someone pushes you, is still the “standing” part. In TJQ, you need to sink, relax, and keep balance. The internal structure and balance must remain intact regardless what. This demands practice and understanding. It’s not that easy as it would be about just “being passive”.

origami_itto wrote:The form itself, played properly, is what develops the tissues.


Honestly said, I have no clue if anything is about developing tissues, but I would agree that proper form practice is more important for developing structural integrity and stability.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8350
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby origami_itto on Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:49 am

Bao wrote:
Honestly said, I have no clue if anything is about developing tissues, but I would agree that proper form practice is more important for developing structural integrity and stability.


Well white tissues are developed by stretching and increased blood flow which promotes vascularization and innervation. Light resistance, high rep exercise. Ymmv but it sounds an awful lot like what happens when you're playing the form properly.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:37 am

Yeung wrote:Standing passively to reduce the incoming force by one’s body weight, and move passively directed by the residual force or move actively to redirect the residual force. The residual force is defined as the difference between the incoming force and the body weight; Fr = Fin - Fbw. And there is no movement when Fbw ≥ Fin.

This sort of explains why Taijiquan is good for the prevention of fall, because standing passively maintains the flexibility of the joints of the lower limb: hip, knee, tibiofibular, ankle, and subtalar.

https://teachmeanatomy.info/lower-limb/joints/

Testing: There are many passive stances, just ask someone to do a frontal stance with feet apart at shoulder length and push the centre of mass from any direction in various intensities and observe the movements and stepping. Upon impact of the external force to the centre of mass, one should sensed the dispersion of that force to various parts of the body and move into alignment with the trajectory of that force.

Result: It works with anyone who learned the technique of standing passively after a few trials to build up one’s confidence.

Conclusion: Passive movements upon impact conformed to the theory of one move all move.


How much force...
Typically in taiji we talk about 4oz....

No mention of speed for the incoming force, in other words does the neutralization begin before impact, at impact, or after impact.

What if it's not "force" that is being acted on...or neutralized

mmm no example's shown ;D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BuChN5UnSY
If you cannot find the truth right where you are,
where else do you expect to find it?

Dogan
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby charles on Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:01 pm

Yeung wrote:Standing passively to reduce the incoming force by one’s body weight, and move passively directed by the residual force or move actively to redirect the residual force. The residual force is defined as the difference between the incoming force and the body weight; Fr = Fin - Fbw. And there is no movement when Fbw ≥ Fin....

Testing: There are many passive stances, just ask someone to do a frontal stance with feet apart at shoulder length and push the centre of mass from any direction in various intensities and observe the movements and stepping. Upon impact of the external force to the centre of mass, one should sensed the dispersion of that force to various parts of the body and move into alignment with the trajectory of that force.

Result: It works with anyone who learned the technique of standing passively after a few trials to build up one’s confidence.

Conclusion: Passive movements upon impact conformed to the theory of one move all move.


I'm having difficulty making sense of what you've written.

You've defined some "residual force" as being the difference between the (magnitude) of an incoming force and one's body weight. One's body weight acts down (vertical). In the simple situation of someone pushing on you, the push is more or less horizontal. The distance between your contact with the ground and the applied force creates a moment. (A moment is not a force.)

According to Newton's laws, in this "static" situation, it isn't possible for you to "passively" stand there or you will be toppled or slid in the direction of the applied force. (A frictional force between your contact with the ground (e.g. feet) is proportional to your weight and the coefficient of friction between your feet and the ground/surface you are standing on. If the applied force is greater than the countering frictional force, you will either slide or topple.)

Taijiquan is about change. Specifically, changing what you were doing to respond to changes (in forces/moments) applied to you. Whomever changes "better" in response to the other wins. The idea that one can "passively" just stand there and do literally nothing while someone pushes on you contradicts science. In static standing, you maintain equilibrium with the forces applied to you - such as gravity. As soon as someone applies an additional force, to maintain equilibrium with that new arrangement of forces, you have to do something to maintain or re-establish equilibrium.
Last edited by charles on Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1667
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests