The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:50 pm

Yes it is a con and goes against the laws of physics
For a start it is impossible to stand still
It works well for the old student springing off the ground trick
It is of little use in actual combat
I like to imagine my opponents touch is the point of a blade
We shouldn’t be there
People were talking about 4 ounces elsewhere
There are 3 ways to defeat an attack
Neutralise AND Return
Neutralise/Return
Return
The third is the best
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Yeung on Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:09 pm

Thank you for the interesting comments, but this is just the beginning posture of Taijiquan. Standing passively is not trying to stand still or maintaining stillness upon an incoming force. The use of formula is not a very good idea but it sort of gives the idea of what will happen if you are standing passively and an external force acted up on you that is all. To neutralise an incoming force it is only sensible to sense the tension and direction of the residual force upon contact as the first step in the process of neutralisation.

I am only talking about the lower limbs, there is a difference between standing passively and trying to stand still in Zhan Zhuang. So, comment on standing in Zhan Zhuang is welcome.
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:39 pm

I was referring to people trying to stand still against a push while directing the pushers force into the earth
I agree standing in ZZ is a great training tool but it is the micro movement in retaining posture that is the true value
Wu chi at the start of tai chi is the ultimate goal
Every move in tai chi is an attempt to use neutralisation and central equlibrium to return to Wu Chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Bao on Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:32 am

wayne hansen wrote: it is the micro movement in retaining posture that is the true value
Every move in tai chi is an attempt to use neutralisation and central equlibrium to return to Wu Chi


Agree. Maintaining the internal structural integrity is not just like standing passively. Yeah, it's more about micro corrections to maintain that structural integrity. It should be a very subtle thing. It's not passiveness.
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Yeung on Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:57 am

Image
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Yeung on Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:46 am

[4] NEUTRALIZING:
分化敵勁,使變其方向,並令其成背勢,由沾黏勁與走勁而成。
Neutralizing the opponent’s power causes it to change direction, which induces him to back off. Neutralizing is the product of sticking and yielding.
SHI DIAOMEI ON PUSHING HANDS
Posted on December 31, 2021 by Paul Brennan
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Ad_B on Wed May 25, 2022 10:21 am

Yeung wrote:Standing passively to reduce the incoming force by one’s body weight, and move passively directed by the residual force or move actively to redirect the residual force. The residual force is defined as the difference between the incoming force and the body weight; Fr = Fin - Fbw. And there is no movement when Fbw ≥ Fin.

This sort of explains why Taijiquan is good for the prevention of fall, because standing passively maintains the flexibility of the joints of the lower limb: hip, knee, tibiofibular, ankle, and subtalar.

https://teachmeanatomy.info/lower-limb/joints/

Testing: There are many passive stances, just ask someone to do a frontal stance with feet apart at shoulder length and push the centre of mass from any direction in various intensities and observe the movements and stepping. Upon impact of the external force to the centre of mass, one should sensed the dispersion of that force to various parts of the body and move into alignment with the trajectory of that force.

Result: It works with anyone who learned the technique of standing passively after a few trials to build up one’s confidence.

Conclusion: Passive movements upon impact conformed to the theory of one move all move.


Anecdote:

I had a really good attack, entirely self inflicted buts its a tale to tell never the less.

5 years ago I'd decided on ditching the pub-culture aspect of life and doing something else with the time and money instead. I was only an irregular at the local anyway, wouldn't miss it or be missed and most of the blokes who ever made it a laugh had died or moved on. Anyway, after 6 pints of the best, I was outside the pub mentioning this to one of the last pubmates left and that this pint in my hand was going to be my last pub pint bar unavoidable social necessity when a gigantic 6 foot five (at least), 26 stone (at least), legendary Rugby Union prop, had-a-bad-day, pissed-up and angry farmer walks passed and into the pub with a snarling "good evening ladies".

So I did what any peaceable and sensible bloke would do, I called him a cunt.

So he walks back out and starts mouthing about nobody calls him a cunt and that he'd like to punch my lights out.

So I did what any peaceable and sensible bloke would do and I said "Go on then cunt"

And thus he did.

It was very quick and a lot of energy went into it but to my, and everyone elses surprise, I neither went down or even spilt a drop of my (still full) 'last pint'.

He recoiled back, I stepped into a type San Ti of Xing yi type defensive stance and he muttered something and went into the pub complaining loudly.

I suffered a chipped tooth and a bit of nose-bleed from the impact shock but apart from that was unharmed which brings us to why and how it was interesting.

I'd trained for years in Internal Martial Arts but as a health, wellbeing and general life-skill concepts (one of the main skills being to not escalate matters such as calling gigantic, angry, pissed-up Rugby Union props "cunt") and one of the concepts is (枩 song meaning pine tree; fir tree) the art of song, to relax but with a sense of readiness and thats how I intercepted to violence......and it worked.

Qualifier: I do maybe 6-10 miles of walking everyday training as a many 13 dynamics, 13 essentials and 6 harmonies etc as can be applied into my lower half so I have really strong and good legs plus my Wuji opening move is basically always a good 10 minutes of ZZ type postural alignment and relaxation etc so that probably helped a bit....these legs were built for absorbing/transfering etc incoming force. I don't advise anyone to pop down to their local pub and call the nearest and biggest drunk a cunt in order to test the theory.

I couldn't have been more pleased.

You can't get that sort of training or skillset demonstration from sparring or anywhere else but from raw, primordial rage-energy from something that wants to kill you.
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby everything on Wed May 25, 2022 3:35 pm

one of the main skills being to not escalate matters such as calling gigantic, angry, pissed-up Rugby Union props "cunt"

lol that this skill didn't work, but great that the passive stance worked.

was going to post a topic to the effect of "li" in legs, "jin" in upper body. this could be an example.
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby taiwandeutscher on Thu May 26, 2022 5:35 am

鬆 doesn't mean pine tree.
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Re: The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Standing passively

Postby Yeung on Fri May 27, 2022 1:29 am

"He recoiled back" is an example of standing passively.
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