The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby ors on Fri May 06, 2022 1:25 am

Hi everyone!

Separation of bones and meat is not an easy task. To understand this concept you have to understand basic force concept of neijia. Usually we use a kind of "pushing force" both in everyday life and MA. This is the classic force a boxer use whan hitting. The force generating from the feet up to the legs, the waist, the back, the shoulders, the fists.
There are a diffenet kind of force in chinese martial art, which is a kind of so called "leading force". In this case we generate force vice versa. We concentrate on the tip of the finger, or any other "end joint" which we want to use for hitting.
The feeling in the body is a total strech. Thanks to the fact that the movement starts at the tip of the finger and you just pull every bone after bone of the whole body, every joint will "open" a little bit.
For this kind of movement you have to use your intention to imagine that the endpoint leads the movements.
If you continously concentrate P.E. the fingertips and you develop the feeling of whole body strectch (this feeling is a kind of stretch along the bones not like when you try to make a side split or similar), you will feel something like your skeleton "wriggle out of" the muscles. This way we can say the bones go forward while the muscles remain back. This is separation of bones and muscles. The "yi" subject is that we can say the muscles store the "qi" and the bone marrow belongs to "yi". This "yi" is more likely a kind of pure intention. So this is the meaning of "concentrate on yi not on qi!".
If you practice zhan zhuang properly, after some practice you will feel how your muscles sink down, thanks to relaxation. The next feeling is your bones start to "float up". This is a very enjoyable, happy sensation like you would like to fly. This is again separation of bones and muscles.

Cheers!

Örs
Last edited by ors on Fri May 13, 2022 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby Quigga on Sun May 08, 2022 5:33 am

My POV is that essentially you're working with movement itself. Original movement... Source of movement. You move the movement. You tune into that which allows movement in the first place.
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby origami_itto on Sun May 15, 2022 1:47 pm

ors wrote:Hi everyone!

Separation of bones and meat is not an easy task. To understand this concept you have to understand basic force concept of neijia. Usually we use a kind of "pushing force" both in everyday life and MA. This is the classic force a boxer use whan hitting. The force generating from the feet up to the legs, the waist, the back, the shoulders, the fists.
There are a diffenet kind of force in chinese martial art, which is a kind of so called "leading force". In this case we generate force vice versa. We concentrate on the tip of the finger, or any other "end joint" which we want to use for hitting.
The feeling in the body is a total strech. Thanks to the fact that the movement starts at the tip of the finger and you just pull every bone after bone of the whole body, every joint will "open" a little bit.
For this kind of movement you have to use your intention to imagine that the endpoint leads the movements.
If you continously concentrate P.E. the fingertips and you develop the feeling of whole body strectch (this feeling is a kind of stretch along the bones not like when you try to make a side split or similar), you will feel something like your skeleton "wriggle out of" the muscles. This way we can say the bones go forward while the muscles remain back. This is separation of bones and muscles. The "yi" subject is that we can say the muscles store the "qi" and the bone marrow belongs to "yi". This "yi" is more likely a kind of pure intention. So this is the meaning of "concentrate on yi not on qi!".
If you practice zhan zhuang properly, after some practice you will feel how your muscles sink down, thanks to relaxation. The next feeling is your bones start to "float up". This is a very enjoyable, happy sensation like you would like to fly. This is again separation of bones and muscles.

Cheers!

Örs


I think that this is completely off base. The "end point" of a movement is in the opponent's body, not the tip of your finger

So we do weapons training, sword, sabre, staff, spear.

They each have their particular facet of the jewel to polish, but the overarching concept is to unify with the weapon. Make the weapon an extension of your body. A spear is a 9 foot arm with a knife on the end.

If the leading edge of your movement is the tip of your fingers, what about the weapon? You're fighting it and fighting inertia.

Likewise, the art of Taijiquan involves making the opponent an extension of our body and controlling them the same way we would a weapon. We decide how we want the energy to affect them and release it through them.

As far as leading or following, the power is stored and released throughout the entire body simultaneously. Mentally the intention and the movement begin with the feet. The hands are immaterial. They are vectors for power delivery, nothing more.
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby cloudz on Wed May 18, 2022 7:38 am

Ors, fwiw, I enjoyed and liked your take on 'meat and bones'. it makes some sense (I have been shown and taught leading force in the past) and offered a slightly different perspective than what came before. all food for thought really.

seems like it's been ages since we conversed on here.
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby ors on Mon May 23, 2022 12:46 am

Thank you very much George!

Unfortunatelly enough nowadays I don't have too much time for posting here or on any other forums. But I still like to read about good subjects.
I am glad you enjoyed my post. :)

Hi origami_itto!

I have just touched the basics of this subject, to answer the original post.
I haven't written about fighting or weapon work. Just about solo work. Weapon work is exactly about how to put the "end point" out of your body to a shorter or longer simple object, which action leads you to put the end point into a more complex "object" at the end... into the opponent.

Cheers!

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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby origami_itto on Mon May 23, 2022 3:40 am

ors wrote:Thank you very much George!

Unfortunatelly enough nowadays I don't have too much time for posting here or on any other forums. But I still like to read about good subjects.
I am glad you enjoyed my post. :)

Hi origami_itto!

I have just touched the basics of this subject, to answer the original post.
I haven't written about fighting or weapon work. Just about solo work. Weapon work is exactly about how to put the "end point" out of your body to a shorter or longer simple object, which action leads you to put the end point into a more complex "object" at the end... into the opponent.

Cheers!

Örs


Well even with solo work, the intention is not necessarily aligned.

I'm interested in what this leading force is about.

The way I approach this is twofold. There are mechanics for moving and mechanics for releasing energy.

The movement is mainly driven by the waist and the hands "aim". The visual I get is of a heavy machine gun turret that spins horizontally and has a gun that moves vertically.

Releasing energy, it follows the shape and intention the way the bullets follow the muzzle of the gun.

The muzzle isn't pulling the bullet or leading the bullet, it just provides a path of least resistance for the bullet the follow, and theoretically something you want to destroy is in it's way.

The bullet itself is coming from the legs mainly and follows the path you've built through practice, but the end point is just there as a pointer to aim. Like my friend says, he left his arms in the car and just brought his dantien.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding leading here or maybe it's a fundamentally different way of using intention in the movement.
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby ors on Mon May 23, 2022 8:45 am

I am sorry I can't be totally clear with my explanation.
To imagine "leading force" is like this. The body is like a "train". The wagons are the bones connected to each other in a nice chain. The leading end of this chain is like the locomotive of the train. It goes forward and pulls all the wagons after itself. When it crashes to something it stops and all the wagons crashes to it one after the other. Naturally there is a difference between a train and the body but this analogy can describe how this kind of power works.
All the joints are open in the body while moving. The bones like wagons follow the fingertips (or any joint which is the leading of the movement, or the tip of your sword P.E...). When hitting the target the structure of the body closes (the joints closes one after the other) and the weight is delivered.
No gathering and releasing like the usual way. No releasing energy. The method is totally different.

I hope it helps to understand!

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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby Quigga on Mon May 23, 2022 8:52 am

Thanks ors, I was looking for a delivery mechanism besides bolang jin / fanlang Jin

Very useful!
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby origami_itto on Mon May 23, 2022 8:53 am

It does help somewhat.
Practically speaking, there is no engine at the end point pulling the body, so the force itself is still coming from the ground up?
The opening of the joints makes sense, normally we would keep the joints open for best power transmission. The energy spent in compressing the joints we'd say is better sent into the opponent.
But I suppose here the idea is there's the contact, compression, then the rest of the weight once maximum compression is reached... then expansion again?
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby Quigga on Mon May 23, 2022 9:33 am

:P YOU ARE THE ENGINE

The finger bones draw it up like a tree draws it from the ground and sends it to the branches (and maybe out... As in O2/good Qi)

The joints are completely open when you do this
This is the best power transmission

No energy 'spent' during compression
Acceleration -> Sequential Decelerations into the mass

I would say what ors describes allows even more freedom. Integration of other methods is a subject still pending, but feels right somewhat... Nah

When the body is fully released/opened/Sung it's another game is what something tells me

Going into Ryabko territory slowly (halt trespassers! :P :D)
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby origami_itto on Mon May 23, 2022 9:44 am

Quigga wrote:
No energy 'spent' during compression


Yes, that's what a spring/cushion does. It absorbs and stores energy. If the compression isn't matched by an expansion that energy is effectively lost.

The compression here is necesary to allow the delivery of the weight as described. It seems almost like a boxing glove on the end of a spring, you hit them with the glove, the spring compresses completely, the power is delivered to the target. The spring will cushion the blow and sap power.

I'm curious what this model adds? What's the point?
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby Quigga on Mon May 23, 2022 10:43 am

I was talking about the compression of the bones into the partner (the trains crushing into each other metaphor from Örs)

Have to be careful to not influence people too much with words.
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby origami_itto on Mon May 23, 2022 10:56 am

Quigga wrote:I was talking about the compression of the bones into the partner (the trains crushing into each other metaphor from Örs)

Have to be careful to not influence people too much with words.


Like fugazi said "Language keeps me locked and repeating"

I do try to avoid glossing over a post and then responding to a completely different idea than is being expressed, but I do sometimes fall into that trap.

So I was responding specifically to this specific idea.

All the joints are open in the body while moving. The bones like wagons follow the fingertips (or any joint which is the leading of the movement, or the tip of your sword P.E...). When hitting the target the structure of the body closes (the joints closes one after the other) and the weight is delivered.


This sounds to me like the joints closing would absorb some of the energy of the movement.
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby Quigga on Mon May 23, 2022 11:04 am

Peng

Maybe we should wait for Örs?
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Re: The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

Postby origami_itto on Mon May 23, 2022 11:15 am

That's not what I understand Peng to be
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