The Yi of Separate Bones and Meat

[ors]

The force comes from the expansion / strech of the whole body (opening all the joints). The feeling isn't like a spring, much more like a bow. The body is a bow. Expands (open) to gather force and compresses to release it. Or a sling shot.
This is quite the opposite of the spring modell of force releasing.

[ors]

Chen Panling's power generation is similar, but he doesn't use one joint to lead, instead whole body oppening and closing here:



Ma Chuanxu also used "leading force" a lot in his formplay:

[Appledog]

The force comes from the expansion / strech of the whole body (opening all the joints). The feeling isn't like a spring, much more like a bow. The body is a bow. Expands (open) to gather force and compresses to release it. Or a sling shot.
This is quite the opposite of the spring modell of force releasing.

Does this really happen from the fingers? Or does it happen all at once? Could we also say it originates from the back foot?

[origami_itto]

The force comes from the expansion / strech of the whole body (opening all the joints). The feeling isn't like a spring, much more like a bow. The body is a bow. Expands (open) to gather force and compresses to release it. Or a sling shot.
This is quite the opposite of the spring modell of force releasing.

It still seems somewhat backwards. I get that the expansion is holding tension that is released to compress, is the theory then that the energy is released into the structure and rebounds to the ground and back out 3rd law style?

The way you originally described it I was thinking that the contact was driving the compression.

The way I understand it we are going for a stretch and release in the tissues but the joints stay open and loose.

[windwalker]

Excerpt from https://sifuondemand.com/gravitas

Initially, practitioners must notice that a heavy mind, such as in those who cultivate gravitas, is exactly the opposite of the lightness of mind required to separate bones and meat. If you find yourself in a grim and serious state regarding your NeiJia practice, stop it. Progressing requires that you walk the finest of lines between great effort and lightness of mind.

Curious about other views of Light Yi and Separate Bones and Meat.

accords with what is written

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,
http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition


意念要具。意念不能過重，過重則滯。
Your mind­intent is a tool. It cannot be too “heavy” (i.e. too much intention). Too much and it becomes stagnant.

It means not to allow the mind to get locked into an expected outcome unable to change....
Unable to change the body gets stuck...

[ors]

It still seems somewhat backwards. I get that the expansion is holding tension that is released to compress, is the theory then that the energy is released into the structure and rebounds to the ground and back out 3rd law style?

The way you originally described it I was thinking that the contact was driving the compression.

The way I understand it we are going for a stretch and release in the tissues but the joints stay open and loose.

I think you understand it quite clearly, except that the joints stay open and loose... Upon contact the structure of the body closes. The tissues relaxe from the stretch, the joints close, the whole body hits together. I am sorry but I am affraid I can't explain this more clearly. I think you should have to feel it... I know... sounds bullshit.

Örs

[BruceP]

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,
http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition


意念要具。意念不能過重，過重則滯。
Your mind­intent is a tool. It cannot be too “heavy” (i.e. too much intention). Too much and it becomes stagnant.

It means not to allow the mind to get locked into an expected outcome unable to change....
Unable to change the body gets stuck...

Natural and Spontaneous

Free and Easy

Neutrality Principle

As with a bow being drawn, compression resides in the belly and tension resides in the back, and are commuted through a neutral plane after the loose - setting the arrow into motion.

Follow-through is at least as important as the aim. It lends continuity to motion and keeps the energy from being broken off. In tjq, follow-through has a similar rebounding quality as a hammer's stroke while planishing steel. It's the Free and Easy part of tjq's peculiar verve.



"When an archer shoots for nothing, he has all his skill..."
-Chuang Tzu

[windwalker]

Natural and Spontaneous

Free and Easy

Neutrality Principle

As with a bow being drawn, compression resides in the belly and tension resides in the back, and are commuted through a neutral plane after the loose - setting the arrow into motion.

Follow-through is at least as important as the aim. It lends continuity to motion and keeps the energy from being broken off. In tjq, follow-through has a similar rebounding quality as a hammer's stroke while planishing steel. It's the Free and Easy part of tjq's peculiar verve.



"When an archer shoots for nothing, he has all his skill..."
-Chuang Tzu

While I agree in principle, a little more perspective...

Remember the quote is "as if" not "shooting a bow"

Is it referring to the shot, or the qualities, that one uses to shoot with,,,things like "aim" among other other things...



A hollow sphere all parts equal to every other part....what some may be talking about is really how this is expressed...

In Chinese, the word is 棚劲 "peng jin" some have taken it to mean expanding force.
If its expanding does it not expand in all directions


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq4l1TusXxg&t=22s

In the clip he mentions a virtual sphere shaped by mind and body....
the center not necessarily within the body, but in the shape created by it....

[cloudz]

I just posted my thoughts on this in the 'your taiji may be wrong thread in reply to Bao..
here is my post:


I have a slightly different idea about this - yes move from centre is the core of it - however Ors talk about 'leading force' in the meat and bones thread. I have been using that in my transitions for quite a while as that is how I was taught it - to lead me from end of one posture into start of next .

It doesn't actually contradict anything but supplements the stretching of the bow during transitions. best of both in fact.
My advice would be don't write things off so easily, particularly if you have not explored/ experimented them for a while at least.

to try to illustrate a little further during transitions only - you are already open and at 'stretch1' position - the transition will be closing. through this part imagine your body like an accordion that stretches a bit more from the extremities. So in the transition you move through into 'stretch2' position and back to 'stretch1' position. At the same time 're setting' to the start of the next posture (as per normal).. transitions are loading the bow - this just adds a bit more.. the posture 'move through' releases and for this I am always using centre to extremity and back. that doesn't change.

These are not really something you use or learn to use at the same time. the yi component that you train these - which is slow countless times through the form - ingrains a way of moving. this is what you 'become'.

So essentially this is a little extra layer that starts to kick in to refine your biomechanics and movement flow. People however mistakenly take it as a whole other core body mechanic, which is far from the truth in my experience.

[cloudz]

Hey, hope you guys don't mind I'm going to post this here as well as it applies to the same discussion really.
from: https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... b&start=15

cloudz wrote:
to try to illustrate a little further during transitions only - you are already open and at 'stretch1' position - the transition will be closing. through this part imagine your body like an accordion that stretches a bit more from the extremities. So in the transition you move through into 'stretch2' position and back to 'stretch1' position. At the same time 're setting' to the start of the next posture (as per normal).. transitions are loading the bow - this just adds a bit more.. the posture 'move through' releases and for this I am always using centre to extremity and back. that doesn't change.

Bao wrote:
I am not exactly sure about what you mean. But if sounds about right. Working with complementary and contradictory forces is another level, or step of development. IMO, you should first learn how to stretch out the movements from the core, this means developing changjin, or “long energy”. When you have done this, you need to learn how to balance and stabilize your frame from every direction. This means making the movements smaller and add specific principles. All of this can be taught. Yi is something else.

Cloudz wrote:
maybe there is a sticking point.. I think to do with translation/ interpretation of "leading force". For example we have "listening force". However the better way to understand that is to read it as "listening TO force". So it describes a skill applied TO force rather than a quality of force (caused by resulting mechanics).So we are not really describing a force per se. In the same way you should read "leading force" as leading THE force. The Yi does all the work in the initial training; yes it changes how the body moves once you start to apply it in the transitions, but not to the point it changes any force issuing mechanics - IF you use it as i described.

Now yes, it can also be used to lead your strikes for example - this i believe may make a little difference to speed, increasing that and the force arrives a little delayed. . I think it's useful to have this idea in ones toolbox anyway. Though to be fair outside form, most people would naturally focus their intent on target so the slowness/ telegraphing thing sometimes brought up may not always apply either. Personally I think if you do fast form and other practices those kind of issues go away..

Honestly for you to really appreciate leading force as i am trying to write, the best thing would be for me to describe the solo exercise I was given. The yi alone pulls the body and causes the body change. The way i was taught it was through yi training. The description is mechanical because I was describing the effect in those terms after applied to form and ingrained - to the point where you don't rely so much on focused yi as you once did. Building the slow into the fast does this over time for example. I honestly don't know how that turns out without the specific yi solo training exercise, because that's about as close to pure internal martial training exercise that I have done I would say.

You can probably do it without the sword but here is what i was given; stand in a front bow stance with wooden jian out ahead held in your lead hand. Imagine a spot out in the distance somewhere, maybe there's a tree or something out there. Settle comfortably and securely in your stance. Once ready start to focus your intent at the tip of the sword for a while, then draw that out to the spot you chose now rest a while your intent there on that spot in the distance - take your yi all the way out there and keep it there. This is the basic exercise rinse repeat. 5 to 10 minutes at a time is probably sufficient to get it going at the start and built up if required. It doesn't take too many times to start to get the initial feeling of it. I'm not sure if I should go further and try to describe how it goes, as that might spoil the fun!

[wayne hansen]

Love the CPL line exercises
We have similar sets