the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Quigga wrote:Yo I'm just a beginner, there's no reason to fight me

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Wasn't trying to provoke, responding to your honest questions. As for softness into hardness. Another big topic, but more about inner tissue conditioning as the result of bones training. The separation of bones and meat realization comes first, then, over time, the new perceptions become part of 'everyday and ordinary' movement. There is huge change in the type of training a student can perform after the change in Yi that supports Separate Bones and Meat. I would be further interested in how this difference is addressed.

For example, certain extremely twisty NeiGong shapes that, before the change in Yi, constrict the breath and range of movement, while the same movement performed after, the breath is free and range of movement increased. Then we play with the different expectations and notice the effect on the breath in the same twisty postures. After a month or so, the Heavy Yi and Light Yi difference begins to become clear. In my experience, the Heavy Yi and Light Yi difference is required to directly access the bones. This is very different than indirectly accessing the bones by way of the 'meat reference'. 'Softness into hardness' as a deliberate training process is dependent on this change in perception and the resultant change in Yi.

Below the waist we sink
Above the waist we expand
The feet belong to the square
The hands belong to the circle
The square for development
The circle for intensity

wayne hansen wrote:Below the waist we sink
Above the waist we expand
The feet belong to the square
The hands belong to the circle
The square for development
The circle for intensity

Nice quote. I'm not sure how these references can lead yi to separate bones and meat, etc. If a practitioner has already a high level of accomplishment, then these statements show their level, but these same statements do not to help to train separate bones and meat.

The only person who needs to worry about separating bones from meat is Cook Ding:

Cook Ding was cutting up an ox for Lord Wenhui. As every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee — zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Jingshou music.

“Ah, this is marvelous!” said Lord Wenhui. “Imagine skill reaching such heights!”

Cook Ding laid down his knife and replied, “What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now — now I go at it by spirit and don’t look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.

“A good cook changes his knife once a year — because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month — because he hacks. I’ve had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I’ve cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there’s plenty of room — more than enough for the blade to play about it. That’s why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone.

“However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I’m doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until — flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away.”

“Excellent!” said Lord Wenhui. “I have heard the words of Cook Ding and learned how to care for life!”

Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu) (369-286)
Translated by Burton Watson (1925-2017)

Usually, I would say that Mr Barlow is derailing the thread as usual, but I have to agree with his conclusions, that it's better to read about Cook Ding, as Mr Graham (Kelley, not Barlow) seem to not be able auto answer my questions about the practical implications - the "how to" part. Well, this is something I presume by the lack of replying direct questions.

If someone can't explain it in a practical manner, I always suspect that the choice of words has more to do with the writers intellectual work... nuff said.

Bao wrote:Usually, I would say that Mr Barlow is derailing the thread as usual, but I have to agree with his conclusions, that it's better to read about Cook Ding, as Mr Graham (Kelley, not Barlow) seem to not be able auto answer my questions about the practical implications - the "how to" part. Well, this is something I presume by the lack of replying direct questions.

If someone can't explain it in a practical manner, I always suspect that the choice of words has more to do with the writers intellectual work... nuff said.

Maybe you didn’t see this from a few days ago.

Thanks for your comments. 'Separate Left and Right' is dependent first on 'Separate Bones and Meat'. Also, it is true that, 'While The Bones May Rise and The Bones May Sink, the Meat Always Remains Sunk'.

I look at it - and these are my own words - 'Heavy Yi Brings Wild Qi, while Light Yi Reveals Mild Qi'. The problem for the beginner is that the only Qi that can be perceived is Wild Qi. The underlying body-mind confusion from conflicting assumptions or 'unclear yi' about the intention of training creates noise within movement. Wild Qi is just able to overcome that noise and be subjectively perceived as various 'subtle energy circulations'.

Relevant Excerpt from https://sifuondemand.com/gravitas:

As for a concrete training methodology, there are several requirements during practice. What movement you choose doesn't matter, although certain movements help. In order of dependency:

1) Clearly distinguish Shen. ( Refined Warrior Spirit ) from Yi. This takes some meditative work, but with the Standing Mental Model it becomes clear that these feelings arise from different sensory networks. Confusing the two leads to 'Heavy Yi and Wild Qi'. In general, this means do not strive for any positive outcome. Notice the interactions between Shen and Yi->Qi. Avoid anything that imparts Heavy-ness.

2) Be intentional. Intentional learning in this context means your expectations govern outcomes. This is the most difficult aspect to understand.

3) Mind the Slack. By maintaining slack as the object of your moving mediation, you are cultivating the mental model and movement primitive that together stimulate the deep sensory networks needed to condition the tissues to clearly pearceive that the bones and meat are already separate. This reinforces the Yi.

And from yesterday:

As for softness into hardness. Another big topic, but more about inner tissue conditioning as the result of bones training. The separation of bones and meat realization comes first, then, over time, the new perceptions become part of 'everyday and ordinary' movement. There is huge change in the type of training a student can perform after the change in Yi that supports Separate Bones and Meat. I would be further interested in how this difference is addressed.

For example, certain extremely twisty NeiGong shapes that, before the change in Yi, constrict the breath and range of movement, while the same movement performed after, the breath is free and range of movement increased. Then we play with the different expectations and notice the effect on the breath in the same twisty postures. After a month or so, the Heavy Yi and Light Yi difference begins to become clear. In my experience, the Heavy Yi and Light Yi difference is required to directly access the bones. This is very different than indirectly accessing the bones by way of the 'meat reference'. 'Softness into hardness' as a deliberate training process is dependent on this change in perception and the resultant change in Yi.

Damn! The personal attacks from Bao again! I'm doing my best to rise above it.

GrahamB wrote:Damn! The personal attacks from Bao again! I'm doing my best to rise above it.

Hey! I gave you a compliment. I said that you are right and your comment well placed. I am nagging about Kelly don't wanting to reply on a simple question.

But of course, maybe you believe just mentioning your name is offensive.... idk...

Kelley Graham wrote:
Maybe you didn’t see this from a few days ago.

Thanks for your comments. 'Separate Left and Right' is dependent first on 'Separate Bones and Meat'. Also, it is true that, 'While The Bones May Rise and The Bones May Sink, the Meat Always Remains Sunk'.

I look at it - and these are my own words - 'Heavy Yi Brings Wild Qi, while Light Yi Reveals Mild Qi'. The problem for the beginner is that the only Qi that can be perceived is Wild Qi. The underlying body-mind confusion from conflicting assumptions or 'unclear yi' about the intention of training creates noise within movement. Wild Qi is just able to overcome that noise and be subjectively perceived as various 'subtle energy circulations'.

No I didn't see it. I thought that I had looked through the messages.

So it was my mistake. Ok, thank you for correcting me. I guess I'll just blame Graham and say that it's his fault I missed it...

I was teaching Tulisan knife fighting to a class
Two students taught me as much as I taught them
One a chef got into the filleting side of the moves
The other a surgeon went straight to the life ending moves
The interesting thing was both were contained within the forms

my thoughts are quite simplistic, but anyway..

this concept has been embedded in our common language even.

we say about a person in good mood; "he has a spring in his step"
regarding a sad affair we talk about a person with 'a heavy heart'

upbeat
downtrodden
lighthearted

this correlation of mind and body (linked to weight and 'gravity') is out there embedded in our psyche, part of our nature. we see people walking around hunched looking at the floor, others with heads held high and an upright posture. We commonly telegraph our state of mind. And for sure we can work on this, depending what we are seeking to achieve exactly. state of mind translates to state of body, and vie versa too.

Neutrality is a fine concept, for if you want to know positive and negative, you want to know about zero right..
'Bones and meat' creates a nice physical image of the correlate to mind.

This can be approached on differing levels or all together I guess - martial-physical and or the mental-emotional level.

I think there's a danger of going down the rabbit hole here as I'm not sure it's as deep or need be as technical as some of the writing here suggests. Good results can be had with fairly simple methods it just depends your starting point and goals.

Kelley Graham wrote:Excerpt from https://sifuondemand.com/gravitas

Initially, practitioners must notice that a heavy mind, such as in those who cultivate gravitas, is exactly the opposite of the lightness of mind required to separate bones and meat. If you find yourself in a grim and serious state regarding your NeiJia practice, stop it. Progressing requires that you walk the finest of lines between great effort and lightness of mind.

Curious about other views of Light Yi and Separate Bones and Meat.

In my lineage, "the yi of separating bones and meat" simply refers to the proprioceptive feeling you experience once you've learned how to maintain the structural integrity of your frame (peng jin/hunyuan li) -- without resorting to localized muscular tension -- while moving or withstanding incoming force from the opponent.

In other words, you are able to receive and neutralize force using your frame (bones) rather than using muscle (meat) like an average joe.

Hmmm, guess I don't know what separating bones and meats means then. Interesting nonetheless

CJW that’s how I see it
The bones the frame
The flesh the fuel

Not sure bow relatable this is to to 'the yi of seperate bones and meat', but one of the primary breathing methods I have used in tcc form is breathing in through the 'meat' and breathing out through the bones. Interestingly a long time training friend of mine who did Hsingyi for a long time told me they did the same but reversed..

Other than that the other training method I've used that relates at all is the fairly typical softening down of the 'meat'; this ties into heaviness in use. The flip of that is to 'hold the bones'; by paying attention to the joints and the level of inflation/expansion. By finding that neutral zone there, not too much and not too little; hold that feeling of moving from the joints - you should feel light, agile and nimble - feeling free and unencumbered to move in any which way.