Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

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Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby MiaoZhen on Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:57 am

Hi all...

I'm wondering if someone knows if there is any primary source that talks about Yang Luchan teaching Imperial soldiers in Beijing. I'm not being confrontational, I'm just wondering if there is an actual historical citation for his employment other than what his students and the Yang family tell us. I don't remember seeing anything in Douglas Wile's works, and I still can't source myself a copy of 太極拳研究 or 少林武當考 by Tang Hao so I don't know if he had access to Imperial family records that showed Yang's employment.

So, again, I'm just looking for primary source material (in Chinese).
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby origami_itto on Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:16 pm

Maybe follow up on Wu Quanyou
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Quanyou
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:21 pm

Image

Besides, we knew people inside the palace got the real skill. As the famous saying goes “Of Luchan’s students, Wanchun (萬春) got his hard fajin, Lingshan (凌山) was adapt as throwing, and Quanyou (全佑) was skilled at neutralization.” So these were his three best students (besides his sons of course). Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quanyou were Manchurian guards working at Prince Duan’s palace. Wangchun and Lingshan had no desciples, Quanyou today is respected as founder of Wu Style Taijiquan. According to family lore within Taiji circles, there were actually two other Manchurian students who obtained Taijiquan skill before these three, but they both perished during the invasion of Eight-Nation Alliance.

We can tell whatever Yang Luchan taught, he taught everyone the same. Banhou’s skill and training is no different from what is taught in Quan You’s lineage, or different from those of Yongnian students Yang Luchan taught before coming to Beijing. In fact, of the six big styles of Taijiquan today, all five that shared common ancestor in Yang Luchan look more or less the same, with only Chen Style looking very different.


https://internalmartialart.wordpress.co ... y/history/

You might find some history here,,,,

For source material you could email the author.
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not related to the OP question

An interesting counter :)


汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,

http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition



楊式太極拳的老前輩初到北京時,教前清一些子弟練太極拳。技擊的練法不合適,只教了養生 一套練法,而把技擊的拳架教給自家的子孫和徒弟。以後社會上所流傳的楊式太極拳就是養生 的一套。但有些人忽略了內功,只追求外形;有些人要用養生的拳架去練技擊,把太極拳練得走 了樣,無奇不有。這樣既不能很好地養生,也不能用以技擊。當然在一定情況下,也可以用以 技擊,但用的只是招,沒有術。

When the Yang Elders first went to Beijing, they taught the Qing Imperials Tai Chi Chuan.

Since it was not appropriate to teach the fighting methods,
they only taught the health methods, and reserved the fighting methods to their offsprings and indoor students.

Therefore, the common Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan is the health methods. However, some people ignore the Neigong (Internal Practices), and only follow the forms; there are also people who use the “for health” forms to practice for fighting, making their Tai Chi Chuan all wrong, “nothing is too strange” {translator: anything goes}. In this way, it is no good for health, and it cannot be used for fighting.

Under this situation, when you fight, you only have the outward appearance, without the inner methods.[/code]
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby yeniseri on Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:23 pm

When Yang Luchan arrived in Beijing, he taught 10 taiji sets at the mansion of Prince Duan. These 10 sets form a complete taiji syllabus. Whilst teaching at the mansion, Yang accepted two disciples: one was Wang Lanting (whose teachings form the basis of Li [Ruidong] style taiji), the other was Fu Zhou. Both of these people were men of rank within the mansion: Wang Lanting was Prince Duan’s housekeeper, in modern terms he was responsible for the security of the House; Fu Zhou was a Manchu general with a very solid foundation in martial arts. Both of these men only became Yang Luchan’s disciples after losing to him in several challenges. And so Yang taught them these 10 original sets of Yang style taiji.


Source: https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... -li-zheng/


https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%9D%A8% ... fr=aladdin
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby MiaoZhen on Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:57 pm

I've seen these sorts of sources before, but they're all secondary. Or relying on the word of Yang's students. What I'm wondering is if there are actual historical records of him teaching in the Imperial guard or palace. For sure, if he were a tutor to a prince, there would be official records of it written by the imperial household. That would be a primary source. I'll have to go read Wile's book again and see what he uses as the citation for some of his material.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:53 pm

A very good question with many non-answers.

Most people don't understand the importance of primary sources, and this is often reflected in their own research and conclusions.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby nicklinjm on Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:03 pm

@yeniseri, thanks for quoting my blog ; )

It has been a long while since I read Wile's book, agree he would be the best Western source for this. I would caution against expecting there to be historical records which mention Yang Luchan specifically teaching which prince - my impression is that the Qing dynasty imperial records (清史稿) are much more concerned with which prince was ennobled when, etc.

A lot of facts about Yang Luchan's life have had to be inferred from what we do know from various sources. One of the people who did a lot of work in this area in China was the teacher Wu Wenhan (ironically himself a practitioner of Wu/Hao rather than Yang style), who regrettably passed away a few years ago. As he grew up in Xingtai in Hebei (one city over from Yongnian), he was v familiar with the historical context surrounding Wu Yuxiang studying with YLC, teaching Yang Banhou, etc.

Wu wrote an article here (http://www.360doc.com/content/17/0817/12/29545384_679861416.shtml) about the various pieces of evidence for when YLC went to Beijing (birthdates of his sons, promotion of Wu Ruqing, etc). He also issued an updated correction to that article in his excellent book (which I have a copy of).

Based on recollections from older generation masters like Wang Peisheng and Wu Tunan, the prince YLC taught was Zaiyi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaiyi), for whom there are plentiful historical records - note that Zaiyi was only ennobled to Prince Duan in 1894, 20 years after YLC died. It is also Wang Peisheng who specified the battalion YLC taught in, i.e. the Shenjiying (神机营). The specific connection as to how YLC got to teach Zaiyi seems to have been that YLC was recommended to teach at the mansion of a rich Beijing family surnamed Zhang who ran a preserved vegetable business which had an outlet near where Zaiyi loved to go hunting. One day upon returning from hunting Zaiyi stopped at the Zhang's store and saw YLC teaching, was impressed and invited him to teach him and his guards. This is discussed in detail in Wu Tunan's book 'Research of Taijiquan' (太极拳之研究).

One other very good source for details of where and when YLC taught is the quanpu and records kept by Li style taiji (YLC - Wang Lanting - Li Ruidong) inheritors - it is from their records that we can infer YLC died in 1875 rather than the more commonly stated 1872.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:57 am

There are hardly any primary sources about YLC's life and work in Beijing. But since he wasn't really a person of note in the Confucian hierarchy, it's not that surprising. However, you could be forgiven for wondering if he actually existed or not.

You have to ask yourself the simple question - what was he teaching to Princes and soldiers? Princes had no need of martial arts, they had soldiers and body guards for that, and wouldn't it have been an insult to be associated with such a low level practice, on the same rank as prostitutes and theatre entertainers in the caste system? If it wasn't martial then what did soldiers want with it? Interesting questions to ponder.

There is a French language book that has details of the first public school opened by Quan Yu and Ban Hou in Beijing after the death of the Emperor and his retinue being cleared out of the Imperial Palace- that might possibly reference a primary source, but again I doubt it. I'll dig into it...
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:17 am

La transmission du Taiji Quan: De l'art traditionnel aux pratiques modernes by José Carmona

https://www.amazon.co.uk/transmission-t ... ref=sr_1_3

Carmona refers to various books in Chinese.

Translation:

This book is the result of long-term research. For twenty years, the author traveled regularly to China to explore the origins of the main styles of Taiji quan (Tai Chi Chuan). Having reached the end of his investigation, he takes stock of the different aspects of this martial art which, in the 20th century, became a health practice. Among these is an essential dimension, that of a tradition imbued with military values ​​and which remains unknown to the public. From traditional art to modern practices, Taiji yuan has seen its technique become simpler and this to the detriment of its initial content. This impoverishment has been concealed under the tinsel of a widely disseminated pseudo-tradition, the author of which has endeavored to show the limits and sometimes even the dangers, when the practice joins certain currents of Qi-gong (Chi-kung ). In these pages, which contain a lot of unpublished information, the reader will find in particular a reconstruction of the practice of ancient Taiji quan, a study on the formation of the Yang and Wu schools, the most widespread today, and finally a new light on the practice of the fight making the share between the myths and the reality. The book is completed by several appendices and a glossary of Chinese terms.

Like everybody who does a super rare style, it's THE BEST. 8-) But you can see him do some stuff on his homepage: https://www.shenjiying.com/
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:26 pm

Plus, Yang Lu Chan was his nickname.
So maybe looking for references under that name rather than his real name might be a dead end.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby nicklinjm on Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:42 pm

Obviously his birth name was Yang Fukui, but don't think it's quite right to say that Luchan was a nickname, was a 'style' (hao), presumably adopted by him in later life and suggested by one of his literate students (as Yang himself was likely illiterate).

As for that Shenjiying website, looking at the introduction it looks to be just Chang-style taiji (offshoot from Wu family), which is pretty common in Shanghai, not a 'secret' style by any means. Have pushed hands with some Chang style people, they had decent skills (for my low level) and v good listening / whole body peng.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby yeniseri on Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:12 pm

In order for Yang Luchan to teach members of the Qing Flag Battalion(s)!, he had to be in Beijing, Additionally the historical record has stated that Yang Luchan did not expose his art to Manchus but there were quite a few who were his students.
Quanyu Wu was a main student who developed his own 'style' (pai!) so the main solution would be to see the years that he stayed or his sons taught in Beijing. He did teach quite a few Hui people and there are others whose identiy was "hidden' to the extent that it was never mentioned their "background". As we know, the current regime downplays this kind of stuff ;D

I looked up a few sites on Baidu and Sogou and the datres are not clearly described per the time frame though they use, e.g. "ABCV was in Henan in the 5th year of Emperor X, QIng dynastyetc....o the 7 year of Dowager XV, Qing synasty
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby salcanzonieri on Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:12 pm

yeniseri wrote:In order for Yang Luchan to teach members of the Qing Flag Battalion(s)!, he had to be in Beijing, Additionally the historical record has stated that Yang Luchan did not expose his art to Manchus but there were quite a few who were his students.
Quanyu Wu was a main student who developed his own 'style' (pai!) so the main solution would be to see the years that he stayed or his sons taught in Beijing. He did teach quite a few Hui people and there are others whose identiy was "hidden' to the extent that it was never mentioned their "background". As we know, the current regime downplays this kind of stuff ;D

I looked up a few sites on Baidu and Sogou and the datres are not clearly described per the time frame though they use, e.g. "ABCV was in Henan in the 5th year of Emperor X, QIng dynastyetc....o the 7 year of Dowager XV, Qing synasty


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The lineage is Yang Luchan - Liu Jinbao (Manchu Guard) - Zhang Zhengxue

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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby cloudz on Sun May 01, 2022 5:01 pm

forms forms forms
different forms

that's the point!
tai chi is not 'a form'

when you get that, your long tedious search may end
please, pretty please.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby origami_itto on Sun May 01, 2022 5:28 pm

cloudz wrote:forms forms forms
different forms

that's the point!
tai chi is not 'a form'

when you get that, your long tedious search may end
please, pretty please.

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