Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun May 01, 2022 6:13 pm

cloudz wrote:forms forms forms
different forms

that's the point!
tai chi is not 'a form'

when you get that, your long tedious search may end
please, pretty please.


No kidding, Tai Chi evolves to a way of being. You are tai chi. Which comes with mastery.
Mastery over anything, from being a cook, to being an electrician, to being a surgeon,
Every moment in all things exhibits tai chi,

You can see it from catching something effortlessly before it falls out of your hands to not falling down due to terrain conditions.

Been and am at that point.

Arm chair martial artist I am not.
I have used TJ for self defense efficiently and effectively. all over the world and many times. And got challenged by people from different styles at my classes. I won each time.
A number of people who used to be in this group came and paid me a visit and left learning something new or being happy to see the natural CMA being put into effect and vouched for me.
Blah blah blah.

Why is there always a thought police that has to block discourse and understanding of things?
I see how things form patterns and what those patterns do and where there is commonality between patterns.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sun May 01, 2022 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby everything on Mon May 02, 2022 8:17 am

Sun’s book published in 1924 mentions Yang in Beijing.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -teachers/

Possibly Sun’s others books might as well.

Don’t know if they mention Imperial or military links.
Last edited by everything on Mon May 02, 2022 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby cloudz on Tue May 03, 2022 8:30 am

salcanzonieri wrote:
No kidding, Tai Chi evolves to a way of being. You are tai chi. Which comes with mastery.
Mastery over anything, from being a cook, to being an electrician, to being a surgeon,
Every moment in all things exhibits tai chi,

You can see it from catching something effortlessly before it falls out of your hands to not falling down due to terrain conditions.

Been and am at that point.

Arm chair martial artist I am not.
I have used TJ for self defense efficiently and effectively. all over the world and many times. And got challenged by people from different styles at my classes. I won each time.
A number of people who used to be in this group came and paid me a visit and left learning something new or being happy to see the natural CMA being put into effect and vouched for me.
Blah blah blah.

Why is there always a thought police that has to block discourse and understanding of things?
I see how things form patterns and what those patterns do and where there is commonality between patterns.


thought police alert, this isn't about your prowess or skill.

but let me ask you is there really any mystery left regards Yang tai chi and it's evolution from Chen ?
By all means what you found between Chen taiji and Rou quan was something else.

but I notice your search for patterns relating to Post Chen - what left with YLC and in smaller part WYX.
and that was what I replied to.

The way that taiji is practiced is consistent with other methods and different clips from other lines post Chen - so is it just the choreography you want to understand as/through 'patterns' ?

how do you think that helps your practice and development.

If it is about choreography per se, then sure - I do find that a distraction these days - personally. but hey, some people collect stamps.
It's too academic - the main postures of both Chen and Yang are well known.
If I thought it was helpful to getting better I might care a bit more.

sorry if it's a lame thing to say, but, yea, I think patterns in the outer form are not going to offer anything meaningful (intellectually or experientially) and were down to the teachers personal preferences if they where up to creating anything new.

when you're new it's a bit fun and interesting and you need a certain base of knowledge about it perhaps - to understand the outer form development broadly speaking. getting to know some of these differences chen vs. yang, beyond that it does just become academic and not worth further more research other than for its own sake. So yeah, that' MY idea of tedious. But it takes a village, so you do you bro! :)

tbh had couple extra rums that night and came off ruder than normal I fear.. my bad
Last edited by cloudz on Tue May 03, 2022 8:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 03, 2022 2:39 pm

Ah yes, ok.
Well the evolution from one style into another is interesting to me. Helps to understand the purpose of the changes.

And for teaching. I found that in order to teach many different people of many different ages and have them progress in a timely matter, I teach them the forms in order of how they evolved.
Which teaches not only how to do something but why it is done that way (a common question from students of all levels).

So, teaching this way made people do their forms better and then we get to the point where we just care about the energetics that make the style work.
Doing it the other way around takes too long.

So, I teach people to be effective and efficient with their movements so that they can master them and we can move on to the real internals.
And I love teaching "experts" who are advanced, because they are always surprised and the depth of the material and they can relate it to what they thought they knew, but the enlightenment they get makes them really understand the art better (and I do the same for Bagua and XingYi too). The advanced students get the move :"AHA" moments when they learn the Shaolin material and they can see how it all connects and evolves.

For TJQ this is the order:

1 - Shaolin Chan Yuan Gong
2 - Shaolin Louhan 13 Postures
3 - Shaolin Tai Zhu Chang Quan
4 - Shaolin Yuan Hou Quan
5 - Shaolin Lao Xiao Hong Quan
6 - Shaolin Xie Quan
7 - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu
8 - Chen Lao Jia Er Lu Pao Chui
9 - Yang Da Jia (Pre-YCF version)

Everything makes sense at the end.

IF they want more understanding of Chen Er Lu, I teach them Shaolin Pao Cui sets.
If they want more TJQ, I can add the Wu TJQ long form, so clearly evolved things even further.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 03, 2022 8:01 pm

And, and, and if someone knows TJ Sword, knife, spear, etc etc., they can add add the staff.
Because every Shaolin form can be done with the staff using the exact same movements with no change, and the Chen and Yang forms are descended from Shaolin, you can do the Chen and Yang forms with a staff. The form is a staff form.

Which means, the Chen and Yang Lao Jia Yi Lu forms can be done with a staff (which I show in my YouTube videos in my channel.
Easily, with no change of TJQ postural movements, just using the staff as you move doing these forms.
What kind of staff? The short staff, not the very long one.
You can do all the forms I listed above with the short staff.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby cloudz on Wed May 04, 2022 3:52 am

Sal,

I recall seeing a curriculum of The Yangs from an Imperial Yang Taiji lineage.
They taught a lot of forms, a lot!
and I'd wager they had similar names to those you teach.
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George

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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 04, 2022 8:37 am

cloudz wrote:Sal,

I recall seeing a curriculum of The Yangs from an Imperial Yang Taiji lineage.
They taught a lot of forms, a lot!
and I'd wager they had similar names to those you teach.


Well, in actuality, no.
Their forms are not at all like or derived from Shaolin and their forms names are not the same or similar to these.
I watched many of their forms, I saw no connection to anything I know of.

So, far, in my 35 years of research, I have been not able to verify anything about Imperial Yang and Secret Family Yang styles (why aren't they the same if they both have the same origin story?).
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby yeniseri on Wed May 04, 2022 1:51 pm

In some lineages, it is said that Li RUidong and Wang lanting "created" their own "forms" based on their knowledge, understanding and application of Yang Luchan teaching. It is not that distinct to the extent that what Yang learned from Chenjiagou, he (Yang) "created/develo[pe"d his own distinct postural differences (again, they do follow Chen style except that external postural form elements are "shaped differently").

It can be said that "Imperial" and "Secret" does fit the trap of "superior knowledge" that is eaten up by the multitudes in the absence of proper application and a base of instructional pedagogy that is ONLY (usually) known to those who shout out the distinctive nomenclature of those respective style. I state that that are as beneficial as any other styles/variation so choice is important in final analyses.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed May 04, 2022 4:48 pm

Name them
All these people you defeated
By not naming them you are naming everyone who left this forum
Including my teacher
If you make a statement back it up
All those he defeated please raise your hand
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby yeniseri on Wed May 04, 2022 11:27 pm

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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby cloudz on Thu May 05, 2022 2:38 am

salcanzonieri wrote:
cloudz wrote:Sal,

I recall seeing a curriculum of The Yangs from an Imperial Yang Taiji lineage.
They taught a lot of forms, a lot!
and I'd wager they had similar names to those you teach.


Well, in actuality, no.
Their forms are not at all like or derived from Shaolin and their forms names are not the same or similar to these.
I watched many of their forms, I saw no connection to anything I know of.

So, far, in my 35 years of research, I have been not able to verify anything about Imperial Yang and Secret Family Yang styles (why aren't they the same if they both have the same origin story?).



Well nothing really 'derived' from Shaolin, re packaged, re formulated perhaps. but what can be evidenced as something new created at Shaolin? No doubt a lot was developed there by martial artists and or martial monks. But did they invent new postures, brand new ways to lock, throw and strike.. ? New single forms ? I somehow doubt anything like that can be proven and only suspected.

meh.

As for these forms, maybe I will try to dig up the information. It's only speculation on my part anyway, just recall seeing a long list of form names, who can tell re. the complete content as the naming alone isn't so reliable to go on.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 05, 2022 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby cloudz on Thu May 05, 2022 3:13 am

This is what I meant, just to share

https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/page/31/

A: Just now, you mentioned that there are 10 sets in Fu Nei Pai taiji. Could you describe each one briefly?
L: The 10 sets are (in order):
1: Zhi Chui (Wisdom fist)
2: Large frame
3: Old frame (also called the Middle Frame)

4: Small Frame

5: Xiao Jiu Tian (Nine Little Heavens)

6: Hou Tian Fa (Post-Heaven Methods)

7: 30-posture Sanshou

8: Taiji Chang Quan (Long Boxing)

9: Shi San Dan Gongfa (lit. 13 cinnabar methods; in Taoist alchemy, it was thought that the elixir of immortality could be produced from cinnabar)

10. Taiji Dian Xue (striking vital points)

These ten sets form a gradated series of practice, from lower to higher levels, from external to internal. Apart from these routines, Fu Nei Pai also practice pushing hands as well as taiji ball, sabre, sword, longstaff and spear.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 05, 2022 3:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby cloudz on Thu May 05, 2022 3:22 am

Sal,

one more question. have you found or seen any white crane connections in your research?
thx
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Re: Historical Citation for Yang Luchan in Beijing?

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 05, 2022 6:58 am

cloudz wrote:Sal,

one more question. have you found or seen any white crane connections in your research?
thx


hmm, no I didn't. I researched where White Crane comes from, but didn't see any connections to TJQ or whatever we are talking about as far as Northern CMA are concerned.
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