Black, or white, or grey?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:05 pm

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Ssireum 씨름


Another type of grappling that involves throwing and falling.
a little different as they start from the ground and stand up...

While in Korea....at an MLRS live fire over the yellow sea


My soldiers were watching some of the local Korean soldiers ROKs
Playing around throwing each other.

They laughed at the ROKS kind of dismissing it. :-\

I mentioned they should try it...



Knowing that I practiced n-mantis at the time....
They said "why don't you" :P

"lead by example" came to mind :-\

One of them talked to the ROKs pointing at me...
Got thrown 2 outa 3 tries....those guys very strong...
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:12 pm

johnwang wrote:... Since you can't do 2 different things at the same time, you have to choose one from the other.
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:But, you are the one who posted the two clips ("SC, Judo") in the OP. There may be an answer in your answer. SC clip has feet together, falling sideways, landing on shoulder. Now, will you answer my question?

I have posted many Judo clips. But I don't have any Judo experience.

Let me clarify my question. Out of the 2 "break fall" OP clips that you posted, in which clip is the head closer to the ground, the SC or judo clip?

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:... Shuai Chiao break fall.

Image

Judo break fall.

Image

Which method is the head closer to the ground, SC or judo? What's your opinion on this?
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby origami_itto on Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:19 am

johnwang wrote:In MA, do we have absolute black and white? Are there any grey in between? What's your opinion on this?

If you use your arms to protect your head from hitting on the ground, you won't be able to use your arm to hit on the ground for break fall. Since you can't do 2 different things at the same time, you have to choose one from the other.


There are some hard and fast rules, like, you can't move when you're double weighted. That's what double weighted means...

But what your describing is opportunity cost, TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).

Even if somebody provides you with a satisfying meal at no cost to you, the cost is every other meal you could have potentially eaten.

It also pertains to engineering and systems and trying to get more energy out of something than you put into it.

The black and white rule of the universe is that you have to work with limited resources and loss.

So we look at your question about falls. You have to ask where are you going to be using your art and for what purpose? Are you going to be on a nice soft mat when you get thrown or could you be doing this in a bar or parking lot? That's gonna affect how much thought and training you need to put into certain things and which decision you make there.

That pertains to combat in that beyond a basic level of altercation, we start to make optimization choices. We can't equally develop all facets. We can't be completely prepared for all situations.

In the past that leads to completely different styles adapted to their testing grounds. TKD vs BJJ for example is this sort of idea taken to an extreme.

So I believe the best course of action is to train adaptability. Become a handshake.

We all have different hands and different ways of shaking them, but they come together and match perfectly. Some say you can read everything you need to know about a man by how they approach and accomplish this.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby robert on Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:20 am

johnwang wrote:In MA, do we have absolute black and white? Are there any grey in between? What's your opinion on this?

If you use your arms to protect your head from hitting on the ground, you won't be able to use your arm to hit on the ground for break fall. Since you can't do 2 different things at the same time, you have to choose one from the other.

I learned judo break falls when I studied xingyi and bagua. I practiced tumbling/falling for a couple years; my take-away was don't break your fall with elbows, hands, or knees, and watch your head. How I protect my head would likely depend on the situation. The only time I've used it is when training, although it's kicked in a couple times when I nearly slipped on ice or a wet floor.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby GrahamB on Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:32 am

I thought this thread was going to be about wizards from Lord of the Rings. Disappointed.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby greytowhite on Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:40 am

GrahamB wrote:I thought this thread was going to be about wizards from Lord of the Rings. Disappointed.


I'll take Radagast the Brown. Fucks off to the woods to practice shapeshifting and lets the rest of them fight it out.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:12 am

robert wrote:I learned judo break falls when I studied xingyi and bagua. I practiced tumbling/falling for a couple years; my take-away was don't break your fall with elbows, hands, or knees, and watch your head. How I protect my head would likely depend on the situation. The only time I've used it is when training, although it's kicked in a couple times when I nearly slipped on ice or a wet floor.

Excerpts from "The Most Valuable BJJ Technique Every Person Should Know:"

BJJEE on MAY 01, 2021 wrote:In all seriousness, the breakfall is the most important and applicable move in all aspects of life. Slip and fall in the kitchen? Hopefully you learned to breakfall. Is it an icy winter and while you’re shoveling snow you slip? Breakfall. Walking a trail and trip? Tuck, roll and breakfall. This technique applies to other martial arts. If you are swept in muay thai and post on your glove, you’re looking at a broken wrist or arm.

One out of five falls causes a serious injury such as broken bones (wrist, arms, and hips) and head injury.

These injuries can all be avoided by proper technique, the breakfall. If executed correctly, you can avoid broken wrists and arms by not posting which is the natural human reaction. Tucking the head can greatly reduce the chance of head injury and falling on your body in the right way can also reduce hip injury....

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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:27 am

marvin8 wrote:Let me clarify my question. Out of the 2 "break fall" OP clips that you posted, in which clip is the head closer to the ground, the SC or judo clip?

I'll say the Judo clip but that's free fall and not been thrown. Sometime when your opponent throws you, you don't know which part of your body will land first.

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Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:56 pm

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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby edededed on Tue May 10, 2022 2:04 am

Hi John - great thread! I never even knew that shuaijiao's breakfall was different.

Now I found a video describing it with a bit more detail - it looks like Chang Dongsheng's son Dawei has a group (or a student) teaching in Tokyo now.


Regarding punching:
Neijiaquan also seems to prefer to not punch 180 degrees for the most part.
(One exception is, for example, xingyiquan's shunbubengquan that often turns to a kind of half mabu.)
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