Black, or white, or grey?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Black, or white, or grey?

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:52 pm

In MA, do we have absolute black and white? Are there any grey in between? What's your opinion on this?

If you use your arms to protect your head from hitting on the ground, you won't be able to use your arm to hit on the ground for break fall. Since you can't do 2 different things at the same time, you have to choose one from the other.

Shuai Chiao break fall.

Image

Judo break fall.

Image

Also, you either use southern CMA WC punch with 90 degree shoulder,

Image

or you use nothern CMA punch with 180 degree shoulder.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:31 pm

johnwang wrote:In MA, do we have absolute black and white? Are there any grey in between? What's your opinion on this?

If you use your arms to protect your head from hitting on the ground, you won't be able to use your arm to hit on the ground for break fall. Since you can't do 2 different things at the same time, you have to choose one from the other.

Shuai Chiao break fall.

Image

Judo break fall.

Image

Which method is the head closer to the ground, SC or judo? What's your opinion on this?

johnwang wrote:Also, you either use southern CMA WC punch with 90 degree shoulder,

Image

or you use nothern CMA punch with 180 degree shoulder.

Image

Also, you either use "rhino guard" punch with 90 degree shoulder or you use "long guard" punch with 180 degree shoulder?

Do you protect your head by extending both arms, covering your head, yielding, etc.? At what distance? What's your opinion on this?
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:37 pm

marvin8 wrote: What's your opinion on this?

I'm more interested in other's opinions.

If you have trained both

- SC and Judo, which break fall do you prefer?
- northern CMA and southern CMA, which punching method do you prefer?
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:51 pm

On SJ vs Judo falling, one theory I heard is that the Judo method evolved for spectators and to make the fall more dramatic by slapping the ground.

I learned how to fall by skateboarding on the street. You very very quickly learn to naturally fall the Shuai Jiao way. It’s surprising how well you’re body can become accustomed to taking impact after impact onto concrete, using the SJ method.

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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby everything on Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:54 pm

I learned a skateboard fall, which broke 3 bones.

Learned judo fall as well as aikido (for lack of a better term).
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:01 pm

D_Glenn wrote:On SJ vs Judo falling, one theory I heard is that the Judo method evolved for spectators and to make the fall more dramatic by slapping the ground.
.

Regardless of slapping the ground, per the clips, does one fall straight back on their side or at a diagonal to dissipate the energy?
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby Subitai on Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:21 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: What's your opinion on this?

I'm more interested in other's opinions.

If you have trained both

- SC and Judo, which break fall do you prefer?
- northern CMA and southern CMA, which punching method do you prefer?


In answer to your questions:

1) About SC or Judo

I have not trained in both, ie. I've only done Judo, so i can say I have experience with the Judo break-fall. I can honestly say, "Judo has saved my Life" (MORE THAN ONCE)

* It saved me from falling multiple times...being able to take a devastating whip-out, with just scratches and to walk away.
** I've used a basic Hip throw in fights a few times and i've Knocked out a couple of guys with "Harai Gosh" (landed on their heads)

2) This 2nd part of you question i'm sort of confused. All the kung fu i've ever learned usually has both as you describe: ie. the 180 same side with extended limb or as you describe the chest is 90deg to the extended arm.

For example:
in Yang Tai Chi, the punch in "Step, parry & punch " is basically the 90deg arm to the chest. So is brush knee. (in Karate this would be akin to "reverse punch" set up.)

* Single whip " and " Parting Horse Mane" purely as a strike, are both basically your 180 shoulder.

=====================================
I learned Hung gar and it' strikes with both methods as well.

I learned also Bak Sil Lum (Northern Shaolin) and that also has both.

I can imagine it's not all black and white...but that most styles are grey and do both?
Last edited by Subitai on Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:13 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: What's your opinion on this?

I'm more interested in other's opinions.

If you have trained both

- SC and Judo, which break fall do you prefer?
- northern CMA and southern CMA, which punching method do you prefer?


Does PLF count ?

Image

Had friends who did Judo, and also Aikido who tried to teach me to fall their way...
not really something that stuck with me....

The Army, managed to train me it's way...
It did come in handy a couple times.

One time managed to run off a small cliff having a 15 feet drop or so, maybe more...in the middle of the night pitch black answering a call for "Medic" :o
A French soldier had fallen off the same small cliff, I the plt medic, hearing the call. ran over to the sound,
running over the same cliff .lol :) .

Was kinda funny...in mid air, managed to tuck, landing on my ruck, rolling out of it....the French soldier no broken bones, just bruised from landing wrong.

Even after many years of being out. It stuck with me,
preventing my self from getting injured .
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:33 pm

windwalker wrote:Does PLF count ?

Image

Image

- The parachute landing method all have helmet on. No need to protect the head. Also the parachute can lift your upper body so your head won't hit on the ground hard.

- The Judo method works well indoor with soft mat.

- The SC method works well when you don't know what object that your head will land on.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:59 pm

johnwang wrote:

https://i.postimg.cc/s2wVmMk0/parachute ... g-fall.jpg

- The parachute landing method all have helmet on. No need to protect the head. Also the parachute can lift your upper body so your head won't hit on the groung hard.

- The Judo method works well indoor with soft mat.

- The SC method works well when you don't know what object that your head will land on.

https://i.postimg.cc/HVvhc1N3/SC-kill-1.gif

Will you answer my question? SC clip has feet together, falling sideways, landing on shoulder.

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:... Shuai Chiao break fall.

Image

Judo break fall.

Image

Which method is the head closer to the ground, SC or judo? What's your opinion on this?


What about parkour, no helmet? Since, they tend to fall from higher distances.

Ruustic
Jun 22, 2014

How to do a Parkour roll in the best, safest, most simple way! Rustic B shows his way to learn how to do a Parkour Shoulder (Judo) Roll roll in this detailed tutorial. MORE STUNT TUTORIALS: http://bit.ly/2qh7Cm0

TIPS for Parkour / Judo Roll:
- Make sure you take your momentum forward instead of down! It will spread your impact and weight over the surface area of your entire body, and the energy will bounce off you like it does a ball.
- Use your hands to guide you into the proper position for the parkour roll! You can give yourself as much (or as little) cushioning as you want. And I'd definitely recommend trying to make your roll as safe as possible :)
- Practice coming out of your roll and continuing your momentum forwards! This will help you when you do parkour, but also will teach you the proper weight distribution and direction when using this move to really save yourself from a bad drop.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc2OEk85CfY
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:01 pm

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote:Does PLF count ?

Image

Image

- The parachute landing method all have helmet on. No need to protect the head. Also the parachute can lift your upper body so your head won't hit on the groung hard.

- The Judo method works well indoor with soft mat.

- The SC method works well when you don't know what object that your head will land on.

Image


Wouldn't know about the parachute part.

Actually don't remember wearing helmets...


We learned it as part of commando course, with the French....Just the PLF

Image

Later using it at the end of a slide for life dropping about 18 ft,

Image
example slide for life...


.

Also an experience, :o

The one we trained on had a metal plate at the end of the slide,,,that one would crash into if you didn't release when commanded to..

The fall about 18ft,,,into loose gravel....another problem if one didn't land right...
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:07 pm

marvin8 wrote:Which method is the head closer to the ground, SC or judo? What's your opinion on this?

You may assume the ground is flat. Sometime that may not be the case. I don't know which one is closer. I have no experience in judo break fall method.

Image
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:24 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Which method is the head closer to the ground, SC or judo? What's your opinion on this?

You may assume the ground is flat. Sometime that may not be the case. I don't know which one is closer. I have no experience in judo break fall method.

https://i.postimg.cc/HVvhc1N3/SC-kill-1.gif

But, you are the one who posted the two clips ("SC, Judo") in the OP. There may be an answer in your answer. SC clip has feet together, falling sideways, landing on shoulder. Now, will you answer my question?

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:... Shuai Chiao break fall.

Image

Judo break fall.

Image

Which method is the head closer to the ground, SC or judo? What's your opinion on this?
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:55 pm

Image

Example of bayonet disarm


Old memories

Was part of group of martial artist in the 1/39 INF Battalion stationed in Bumholder Germany back in the 70s…at the time.
Every yr the group would put on a demo in Luxembourg as part of celebration for the libration of it in ww II…
Part of the demo involved charging with bayoneted rifle trying to bayonet another soldier…

The soldier would grab the rifle with both hands step and twist throwing the attacker “me” disarming the attacker ending up with the rifle.
During this time the Battalion, XO wanted to see the demo…

in practice we used hard rubber bayonets. For the demo a live one was used..

The XO a major came down to the gym, wanting see the demo….
The demo only works only if the proper “intent” is used…Otherwise either the defender or the attacker can be hurt as the timing would not be right….
During this time, a little distracted, as I was thrown over the defender he taking the rifle in the process, landed on my shoulder rolling out of it….instant sharp pain.. :o

The major wanted to see it again :P …ignoring the pain

Repeated the demo,,,this time making sure to pay attention
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Black, or white, or grey?

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:42 pm

marvin8 wrote:But, you are the one who posted the two clips ("SC, Judo") in the OP. There may be an answer in your answer. SC clip has feet together, falling sideways, landing on shoulder. Now, will you answer my question?

I have posted many Judo clips. But I don't have any Judo experience.

- To have feet together is mainly to protect the groin.
- To fall side way is to prevent the back of the head to hit on the ground.
- To land on shoulder because the muscle behind the shoulder is the stronger part of the human body.
- To curve your body to prevent your opponent from falling on top of you.

How you will land depends on how your opponent may throw you. The key point is as long as your head is protected, you won't die.



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