What is push hands?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What is push hands?

Postby Giles on Mon May 02, 2022 11:53 am

Doc Stier wrote: In this way, relaxed sensitivity of touch at the points of contact and fluid softness of changes became the primary focus of every exchange with any practice partner, rather than simply winning for the sake of personal ego gratification.


Absolutely. And this "fluid softness of changes" helps to ensure that tuishou doesn't become an end in itself, but instead feeds both ways: back into solo practice and onward into self-defence.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1086
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: What is push hands?

Postby johnwang on Mon May 02, 2022 12:00 pm

In my Taiji system, PH is only for training. It's not for testing.

I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9835
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: What is push hands?

Postby marvin8 on Mon May 02, 2022 2:30 pm

johnwang wrote:In my Taiji system, PH is only for training. It's not for testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVhEvxK1LDw

No one said "compete" or "test." We said "This level cooperating partner exercise appears to be missing." -shrug-

marvin8 wrote:
Giles wrote:Origami: nice summary. And then as consenting got-myself-fully-under-control adults you can sometimes include some or all of the other possible techniques - locks, strikes, throws, kicks - without injuring your partner or even causing him to no longer like you or not want to keep practicing with you. At the same time, the quality and feel should still be as smooth and relaxed as the fundamentals you keep going back to.

Yes. But even before that, starting from long distance, the cooperating partner accurately attacks in any way, then you push them. After all, push hands is about developing skills for self defense, which starts from non-contact to contact. This level of partner exercise appears to be missing. -shrug-
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2647
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: What is push hands?

Postby cloudz on Wed May 04, 2022 3:56 am

super simple answer

a way to develop the fusion of technical skills and physical attributes across the mind-body spectrum
motor control (technique, skill, sensitivity etc.) <----------> physical attributes (qualities; connection, alignment, force etc..)
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 04, 2022 4:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
Regards
George

London UK
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: What is push hands?

Postby Giles on Wed May 04, 2022 12:47 pm

cloudz wrote:super simple answer

a way to develop the fusion of technical skills and physical attributes across the mind-body spectrum
motor control (technique, skill, sensitivity etc.) <----------> physical attributes (qualities; connection, alignment, force etc..)


+1
A further dimension: first steps towards relaxing the mind and the emotions when under pressure, when 'threatened'. But not thrown in the deep end, so not having to relax the mind when someone is trying to hurt or harm you, or even just hit you in a 'friendly' way; you can start at a low level, quite 'gentle', but even this in many cases is still enough to trigger fear and hardness. So gradual habituation.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1086
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: What is push hands?

Postby Quigga on Thu May 05, 2022 5:29 am

Letting go of fear - training camps for express training of Mujahideen, running while being shot at

Systema guys having 3 and more people ganging up on them

Actually touching hands with someone like Yang Luchan or Sun must have been quite terrifying
Enjoying the illusion is true freedom
Quigga
Wuji
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:08 pm

Re: What is push hands?

Postby origami_itto on Fri May 06, 2022 1:00 pm

Quigga wrote:Letting go of fear - training camps for express training of Mujahideen, running while being shot at

Systema guys having 3 and more people ganging up on them

Actually touching hands with someone like Yang Luchan or Sun must have been quite terrifying


Robert Smith, who was an accomplished boxer, said Cheng Man Ching terrified him.

So you can only imagine
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: What is push hands?

Postby Doc Stier on Sat May 07, 2022 5:13 pm

origami_itto wrote:
Quigga wrote:Letting go of fear - training camps for express training of Mujahideen, running while being shot at

Systema guys having 3 and more people ganging up on them

Actually touching hands with someone like Yang Luchan or Sun must have been quite terrifying


Robert Smith, who was an accomplished boxer, said Cheng Man Ching terrified him.

So you can only imagine

And Robert Smith was also substantially larger and heavier than CMC, but he discovered that superior skills combined with a high level of internal cultivation easily neutralized his size advantage. Lesson learned. 8-)
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5323
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

Re: What is push hands?

Postby Giles on Sun May 08, 2022 8:59 am

Over the years I've had some hands-on experience with various tai chi people who combined very good 'soft skills' with fighting experience. Several of these, although not all, were from CMC lineages. What I found indeed scary was the way they could move through my defences (such as they were at that time) very quickly and smoothly, without giving me any sense of "danger, incoming!". And moreover, following straight on from this, with the ability to deliver a lot of potentially very damaging power by just releasing the energy they had stored in the process. Some qualities varied from person to person, of course, but this was a common element. To use a metaphor, they were already bending the bow as they entered, although I could hardly feel or sense them, in order to then release the arrow at point-blank range.
Even if it was then just a little shake or tap or even just a friendly smile at that point, I could feel it at a visceral level. Like being given a little nudge by a grizzly bear; doesn't hurt at all, but you can feel what's behind it.
Some of these people were smaller guys, in one case even a real lightweight (in terms of physical mass).
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1086
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: What is push hands?

Postby Doc Stier on Sun May 08, 2022 9:20 am

Right on! I have found those qualities present in high level practitioners of all sizes in every major TCC style and lineage.
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5323
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 08, 2022 12:50 pm

I concur
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4434
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: What is push hands?

Postby everything on Sun May 08, 2022 2:27 pm

nudge by a grizzly bear


What a good expression
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 6648
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: What is push hands?

Postby johnwang on Mon May 09, 2022 2:58 pm

Why the leg control skill "咬 (Yao) - shin bite" is not commonly used in Taiji push hand? Does anybody know?

You use your

- arms to deal with your opponent's arms.
- leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

Image

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon May 09, 2022 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9835
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: What is push hands?

Postby origami_itto on Mon May 09, 2022 3:23 pm

johnwang wrote:Why the most basic leg control skill "咬 (Yao) - shin bite" is not commonly used in Taiji push hand? Does anybody know?

Image

Image


Why is the most basic jab and uppercut not commonly used in Shuai Jiao wrestling?
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: What is push hands?

Postby johnwang on Mon May 09, 2022 3:38 pm

origami_itto wrote:Why is the most basic jab and uppercut not commonly used in Shuai Jiao wrestling?

Does Taiji PH ruleset prevent people from using their leg to control their opponent's leg?

In the following picture, their legs contact has been established. A's upper leg is touching on B's upper leg. Is this kind of leg contact illegal?

Image
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9835
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests