What is push hands?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What is push hands?

Postby origami_itto on Mon May 09, 2022 4:12 pm

johnwang wrote:
origami_itto wrote:Why is the most basic jab and uppercut not commonly used in Shuai Jiao wrestling?

Does Taiji PH ruleset prevent people from using their leg to control their opponent's leg?

In the following picture, their legs contact has been established. A's upper leg is touching on B's upper leg. Is this kind of leg contact illegal?

Image


Taiji ph ruleset is whatever the players agree on.

Most of the bullshit tournament rules don't allow use of the leg.

Taijiquan uses the legs all kinds of ways.

Push hands is not Taijiquan combat, it's training.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon May 09, 2022 7:28 pm

It is the first move in Wu tai chi
Left foot steps out hooks in leg bites
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby Giles on Tue May 10, 2022 5:52 am

johnwang wrote:Does Taiji PH ruleset prevent people from using their leg to control their opponent's leg?


There is no Taiji PH ruleset. There are varying rulesets for various PH competitions. Take 'em or leave 'em. Outside of competitions, in real training: At a certain point of proficiency, of course you can include leg-to-leg control if you want, all of the time or some of the time. But better not to begin with, because for the basic learning process, for developing constructive relaxation and sensitivity, it's more useful to confine the vocabulary to the essentials. Otherwise many students will never see the wood for the trees.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Tue May 10, 2022 7:06 am

johnwang wrote:Why the leg control skill "咬 (Yao) - shin bite" is not commonly used in Taiji push hand? Does anybody know?

You use your

- arms to deal with your opponent's arms.
- leg to deal with your opponent's leg.


Depends on the type and style of push hands practice and what the practice is for.

A taiji classmate, friend of mine "Zhao" in studying taiji with our teacher, never really learned the forms, just push hands, later going on to
develop his own methods after some 12yrs with Zhang Shifu, interacting with the taiji group...and visitors


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-wvgOLa0yI

In the clip, Zhang, Shifu could control with just a touch...
"Lawyer Zhao" his nickname because of his job shown interacting with Shifu Zhang....
Developed his own unique way based on Shifu Zhang's teachings as shown

He would go out and push with anyone and everyone.... :)

The main quality one notices when pushing with Zhao, aside from his startlingly lightening speed, is how quickly he changes in order to never use force. He never feels fear, is always calm and never sweats or feels tired. He is always “empty.”

This emptiness is actually full of awareness. Zhao’s posture is completely erect. No stance or footwork is perceptible, but internally where it can’t be seen there is tremendous form. Zhao never overextends or gives up his center. He maintains his composure, rolls with everything he is given and uses that roll back to recoil into wherever his partner is most open, stiff and unguarded. The term “relaxed” does not do justice to his extraordinary level of composure and readiness.

He will be returning to China soon, so this will be a great opportunity to work with him.

https://www.jingying.org/special_events ... hhands.htm




He has a group in Beijing for those interested, and can speak English....
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 10, 2022 7:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 10, 2022 11:03 am

I used the tricks the teacher uses in this clip on my student last night to similar effect
My student thought it was hilarious
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Tue May 10, 2022 11:06 am

wayne hansen wrote:I used the tricks the teacher uses in this clip on my student last night to similar effect
My student thought it was hilarious


Cool, maybe you learned something :)
of course no video ? :P


Some of what "Zhao" used with his student "single whip"

Our solo practice of the movement looks similar to other taiji yang style variants
In use, from what I've seen over the yrs
it seems quite different
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 10, 2022 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 10, 2022 1:33 pm

Plenty of me out there
Do it yourself just wrap your arm around your partners neck and see if he can push you
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby origami_itto on Tue May 10, 2022 5:08 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Plenty of me out there
Do it yourself just wrap your arm around your partners neck and see if he can push you

Well to be fair you still have to know how to use that touch to neutralize in six directions.
And there's a spectrum of application of that principle all over the body, right? The neck is just so obvious.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Tue May 10, 2022 5:29 pm

origami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Plenty of me out there
Do it yourself just wrap your arm around your partners neck and see if he can push you

Well to be fair you still have to know how to use that touch to neutralize in six directions.
And there's a spectrum of application of that principle all over the body, right? The neck is just so obvious.


The clip a small part, of a visit in 2002 ....
None of whats been suggested would be possible with Master Zhang,,,,
His way of training was to let people try things, allowing them to feel the work directly....

It was fun, there are aspects of his work that wouldn't be understood here,
you just had to be there... :)





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0RawEM8lMk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo


Not really possible to push hands as is commonly thought,,,,
with him or some of his older students...

JW asked about why, some things are not done...
Actually everything was tried, and tested just didn't work

Those there understanding this, focused on the taiji skill sets he taught through his practice.....
A little different then some other methods...of taiji



...
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 10, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 10, 2022 5:53 pm

origami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Plenty of me out there
Do it yourself just wrap your arm around your partners neck and see if he can push you

Well to be fair you still have to know how to use that touch to neutralize in six directions.
And there's a spectrum of application of that principle all over the body, right? The neck is just so obvious.


No you don’t
I could teach an untrained person to do it in 5 minutes
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 10, 2022 5:56 pm

windwalker wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Plenty of me out there
Do it yourself just wrap your arm around your partners neck and see if he can push you

Well to be fair you still have to know how to use that touch to neutralize in six directions.
And there's a spectrum of application of that principle all over the body, right? The neck is just so obvious.


The clip a small part, of a visit in 2002 ....
None of whats been suggested would be possible with Master Zhang,,,,
His way of training was to let people try things, allowing them to feel the work directly....

It was fun, there are aspects of his work that wouldn't be understood here,
you just had to be there... :)


I’m glad you enjoyed it
Nothing wrong with any training you enjoy and learn from

I am only commenting on what is shown in the clips
Things he is doing to defeat the other guy is things I would feel lesser to employ




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0RawEM8lMk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo


Not really possible to push hands as is commonly thought,,,,
with him or some of his older students...

JW asked about why, some things are not done...
Actually everything was tried, and tested just didn't work

Those there understanding this, focused on the taiji skill sets he taught through his practice.....
A little different then some other methods...of taiji



...
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4425
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 10, 2022 5:58 pm

windwalker wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Plenty of me out there
Do it yourself just wrap your arm around your partners neck and see if he can push you

Well to be fair you still have to know how to use that touch to neutralize in six directions.
And there's a spectrum of application of that principle all over the body, right? The neck is just so obvious.


The clip a small part, of a visit in 2002 ....
None of whats been suggested would be possible with Master Zhang,,,,
His way of training was to let people try things, allowing them to feel the work directly....

It was fun, there are aspects of his work that wouldn't be understood here,
you just had to be there... :)


I’m glad you enjoyed it
Nothing wrong with any training you enjoy and learn from

I am only commenting on what is shown in the clips
Things he is doing to defeat the other guy is things I would feel lesser to employ




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0RawEM8lMk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo


Not really possible to push hands as is commonly thought,,,,
with him or some of his older students...

JW asked about why, some things are not done...
Actually everything was tried, and tested just didn't work

Those there understanding this, focused on the taiji skill sets he taught through his practice.....
A little different then some other methods...of taiji



...
Last edited by wayne hansen on Tue May 10, 2022 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 10, 2022 6:09 pm

I tried to post a response a couple of times but it didn’t post
What I tried to say is

All training is good if you enjoy it and get something out of it
I can only respond on what I see
I would feel like I was cheating if I used the tricks he used
As I said before try the one where the guy is pushing with his right hand on the teachers left chest
Wrap your hand around his neck
It will totally neutralise him
No skill just a trick
If I don’t point these things out I am stealing from tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby windwalker on Tue May 10, 2022 6:57 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I tried to post a response a couple of times but it didn’t post
What I tried to say is

All training is good if you enjoy it and get something out of it
I can only respond on what I see
I would feel like I was cheating if I used the tricks he used
As I said before try the one where the guy is pushing with his right hand on the teachers left chest
Wrap your hand around his neck
It will totally neutralise him
No skill just a trick
If I don’t point these things out I am stealing from tai chi


Too funny,

You might want to watch the clip more closely.
That was tried

Many of those there visiting often were from noted teachers just
Stopping by to pay respect very skilled in their respective styles.

The idea that they or we didn’t understand what was going on also funny. ;D

What is shown was part of the normal training.
“Training “ as in ask a question

The answer, really the only answer was “ try it “

The post “what is push hands “

A method of training to gain, check and impart certain skill sets.
Outside of competitive environments, the only rules they had in China was
friendly or not.

Combatively or sparring sessions

There’s no chance given, it’s over pretty quick.

Which for those viewing ph as some type of sparring, may not understand .

Of course everyone has their own views
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 10, 2022 8:04 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: What is push hands?

Postby Appledog on Fri May 13, 2022 7:34 am

windwalker wrote:It was fun, there are aspects of his work that wouldn't be understood here,
you just had to be there... :)


From someone who has been around, I can say I completely understand what's going on in the video. It's not as mysterious as you say it is.

windwalker wrote:Not really possible to push hands as is commonly thought,,,,
with him or some of his older students...


windwalker wrote:A taiji classmate, friend of mine "Zhao" in studying taiji with our teacher, never really learned the forms, just push hands, later going on to
develop his own methods after some 12yrs with Zhang Shifu, interacting with the taiji group...and visitors


It took me a long time to understand why it was so difficult to deal with some of the push hands players that use tricks like this and that was mainly because I was accepting the tricks. If someone has their hand on your neck (for example) it is already too late. As they place their hand on your neck you must immediately perform rollback against his elbow; if you don't understand what I mean by this consider 'monk ropes the tiger' from the classing jingwu form (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ-6Ehk6ZBo). There are a multitude of ways to do this; ex. carry the basket on the arm. If I was bored I would simply reach out for his neck in mirror image to see what he would do in response.

What do you think would happen? Do you think he would follow the correct, orthodox movement, or would he shut down the attempt to deal with the attack in an unusual way? If he chooses some unusual way such as yielding in a place his opponent didn't attack, like something out of the 36 stratagems, how can the opponent ever really learn to feel the 8 energies?
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