Deflect and strike at the same time

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby Yeung on Mon May 02, 2022 11:20 am

Johnwang on Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:45 pm

連消帶打 (Lian Xiao Dai Da) - deflect and strike at the same time.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 46#p143426

I am writing a paper on this subject, please help if you have any comments and links, Thank you.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby SCMT on Tue May 03, 2022 7:00 am

Was at a seminar with Pan Qingfu many years ago, he was teaching the same thing. Also this can be found in Xingyiquan, WIng Chun, Baguazhang.... a lt of CMA styles
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby Bhassler on Tue May 03, 2022 8:30 am

It is not exclusive to any style, and no reasonable person would think that they could do that in every situation. It's just kind of a common sense thing that people do if they've had any sort of exposure to even semi-realistic training for physical conflict.

What is the claim that you're making in your paper?
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby johnwang on Tue May 03, 2022 1:19 pm

The simple solution can be:

You attack your opponent's punching arm. You use your circular punch to attack your opponent's linear punch. people may call this "chasing arm". The reason that you want to attack your opponent's punching arm because you try to wrap his arm.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue May 03, 2022 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby everything on Tue May 03, 2022 2:49 pm

Fedor did this. His arm attacked the opponent’s arm and head and turned into a throw. I’m too lazy to find the GIFs I always post of this. Boxers also have the deflect/strike move.

I don’t understand your question.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby johnwang on Tue May 03, 2022 3:13 pm

To use left arm to deflect your opponent's right punch. At the same tme, your right punch hit on his head and take him down.

The deflect and strike strategy can be applied on both the striking art and the throwing art.

Last edited by johnwang on Tue May 03, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby marvin8 on Tue May 03, 2022 9:15 pm

Boxing has it too. Using eccentric muscle contraction, simultaneously defend and strike.

Fold rear kua and rotate which shifts weight to rear foot (moves head), while simultaneously hook (peng->lu->fa):

Image

Fold front kua and rotate which shifts weight to front foot (moves head), while simultaneously cross:

Image
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby Yeung on Wed May 04, 2022 9:51 am

I am sort of confused by the following saying by a Taiwan JKD group: 先消後打、消打合一、連消帶打、不消而打 (First eliminate and then hit, eliminate and hit in one, even eliminate and hit, not eliminate and hit).

My understanding is that using the straight line defensive technique to encounter a punch is to follow the trajectory to deliver a powerful strike targeting at the opponent and intercepts his or her punch by the way. If he or she faked the punch, drawback, too weak, etc., will get the encounter strike. Does that make any sense?
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby Bhassler on Thu May 05, 2022 7:08 am

Yeung wrote:I am sort of confused by the following saying by a Taiwan JKD group: 先消後打、消打合一、連消帶打、不消而打 (First eliminate and then hit, eliminate and hit in one, even eliminate and hit, not eliminate and hit).

My understanding is that using the straight line defensive technique to encounter a punch is to follow the trajectory to deliver a powerful strike targeting at the opponent and intercepts his or her punch by the way. If he or she faked the punch, drawback, too weak, etc., will get the encounter strike. Does that make any sense?


I can't speak for how anyone else does it. I was taught to move offline, and the strike is structured so that the block and the strike are typically the same movement, so there's a dodge, block, and counter strike combined. Depending on circumstances, the other hand may be offbalancing or otherwise inhibiting the opponent, as well. Fighting, as with anything that's high risk, should incorporate as many redundancies as possible, IMO.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby origami_itto on Thu May 05, 2022 11:01 am

Bhassler wrote:
Yeung wrote:I am sort of confused by the following saying by a Taiwan JKD group: 先消後打、消打合一、連消帶打、不消而打 (First eliminate and then hit, eliminate and hit in one, even eliminate and hit, not eliminate and hit).

My understanding is that using the straight line defensive technique to encounter a punch is to follow the trajectory to deliver a powerful strike targeting at the opponent and intercepts his or her punch by the way. If he or she faked the punch, drawback, too weak, etc., will get the encounter strike. Does that make any sense?


I can't speak for how anyone else does it. I was taught to move offline, and the strike is structured so that the block and the strike are typically the same movement, so there's a dodge, block, and counter strike combined. Depending on circumstances, the other hand may be offbalancing or otherwise inhibiting the opponent, as well. Fighting, as with anything that's high risk, should incorporate as many redundancies as possible, IMO.


I was presented with options.

Hold the center, so a deflection causes a defect in the opponent that I can exploit.
Go around the center, move out of the way and attack where they aren't expecting
Go through the center, just overwhelm them with superior force.

But Taijiquan wise it's about central equilibrium, not the center line.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 05, 2022 12:12 pm

It is the same thing
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby Yeung on Sat May 07, 2022 12:27 am

I think there is a mistake in translating Lian Xiao Dai Da as deflect and strike at the same time. From Baidu.com, "It is to attack at the same time as resolving. While resisting, defuse the opponent's attack, and counterattack. It is a strategic tactic in boxing" (as translated by Google).

From what we discussed, it is more like a combination of resolving and carrying on to a strike or other techniques like grab, pull, retract, short distance strike, sticking, etc., using one hand.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby origami_itto on Sat May 07, 2022 1:41 am

wayne hansen wrote:It is the same thing


I'm trying to resolve this. I just don't know enough about centerline theory to say.

IN the CMC lineage they talk about the "16 lines" you can use to throw someone off balance, for example a line perpendicular to one drawn between the heels, sort the rest out yourself painfully over years like the rest of us. I suppose that must affect the center to be effective.

I think I need to work on being more cognizant of that, but at the end of the day that's just basic structural engineering.

What I find is that for folks of lesser skill I don't have to think about or hunt for it or even care about it much. Like if I have your wrist and I do something to it, the body will follow, unless you've got enough skill to neutralize it coming from me. All roads lead to Rome.

Or like left hand on their right wrist, right forearm against their right elbow. You turn your waist and chances are they are coming along for the ride.

When someone of relatively lesser skill tries to connect to my center, then I'm also connected to theirs. If they have insufficient engagement with the ground, then I have control of the system thus created. So I don't need to hunt for the center.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby everything on Sat May 07, 2022 8:14 am

Some of the JKD theory is from fencing

https://youtu.be/vbEETULHshE

Center line also seems to make sense here

Since you are trying to contact the opponent’s torso with a (theoretically sharp) pointed weapon

With the blade outside, it’s too far away if the opponent’s has direct line to your center

In this sort of context, these things seem to make much more sense. Theory should be closer to practice


Disclaimer: I have no idea how to fence
Last edited by everything on Sat May 07, 2022 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Deflect and strike at the same time

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 07, 2022 10:54 am

I think u will find the 16 lines is a TT thing not CMC
Hand on wrist &elbow if u turn sour waist anyone with listening won’t follow they will capitalise
That is what pushing teaches
By the time someone fight in a ring or in reality all movements should be instinctual
Block and strike /blockstrike/strike that is just a matter of timing
Four stages listen neutralise follow and attack
The first three can be done in perception so it looks like you just hit your opponent with no provocation
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