Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby johnwang on Thu May 12, 2022 10:26 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:Just putting this out there: circle walking for me has been nearly a total waste of time.

I use the circle walking for arm drag. I always move my back foot first. I assume most Bagua people move their leading foot first.

I'll have a workshop this coming Sunday. The circle walking arm dragging will be the 1st technique that I will teach. The reason that I treat this as an important principle because most people don't feel comfortable to be dragged in circle. Whether they may resist or yield, their responds would be wrong in both situations.

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 10:29 am

Tom,
”You adhere to the rules in solo practices, so that in a fight, where rules don’t work, you will still have some semblance of skill.”

I think we’re on the same page. I guess in writing one always has to take into account that the reader is always going to take everything literally and at face value. But we probably need to continue to always add in the above disclaimer when discussing solo training principles.

Image

A) these songs were written in the late 1800s so modern Chinese doesn’t always work. And more importantly B) the number of syllables in a word is the most important deciding factor, so in this case 2 syllables is all that could be used.

***
Of course the triangle stepping looks different in application but the guidelines work with any step- forge step, advancing step, retreating step, and even backstepping, like you can see in the bear application.

Here’s a few more songs from Joseph Crandall’s translations of Shi Jidong’s 48 Bagua Songs:

“8. Xie Chu Cheng Ru - Diagonal Leaving, Straight Entering:

With footsteps firm and stable, seek adroit movement. By advancing, retreating, turning, and shifting, seek out the enemy's path. Walking follows the triangle. The toes grip the ground. Diagonal leaving, straight entering, is wonderful and unlimited.

9. Xu Jin - Continuous Advancing:

Develop an offensive posture, the enemy can not move back. Continue advancing with strikes that are difficult to evade. Step and advance the body, then step to the front. The hands, feet, and body must be one and arrive together.

10. Lian Zhui - Continuous Chasing:

I advance. If the enemy retreats, I must follow. One step or two steps, I am continuously stepping to follow. Closely press the enemy so there is no way for him to flee. Continuously advance, victory comes in one step.”


Diagonal leaving, straight entering; Straight leaving, diagonal entering

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 10:36 am

Doc, you to have to be sure to always add the sarcasm tag lol
Doc Stier wrote:
Formosa Neijia wrote:Just putting this out there: circle walking for me has been nearly a total waste of time. I get nothing out of it despite years wasted on it.

Yeah, that sucks. [sarcasm] I have a few students who have had similar experiences with circle walking, despite their grueling 10-15 minute practice sessions a couple of times per week over many years time. Sadly, life is often filled with disappointment. [/sarcasm] :-\


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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby windwalker on Thu May 12, 2022 10:41 am

johnwang wrote:
Formosa Neijia wrote:Just putting this out there: circle walking for me has been nearly a total waste of time.

I use the 3 steps half circle walking for arm dragging. But I always move my back foot first. I assume most Bagua people move their leading foot first.


Some styles use circle walking, an intrinsic part of their method and strategies,
with out it much of the method wouldn't work..


2 styles I've practiced used the circle as an entry point.

"(Mei Hua Tang Lang (Plum Flower Praying Mantis Boxing) and Tibetan White Crane.

Each style also practiced on what are called plum flower post....

Either foot moved according to the step, ending positions being defined in terms of yin / negative ,,,or yang / positive ...

Image
TBWC

showing 2 distinct modes, Crane, and Gorilla "ape" ....the crane being in what would be called a yin / negative, gorilla yang / positive
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 10:52 am

Graham,
I don’t mean to question anything that good ole Phillips espouses but it’s possible that the origin is a lot more simple and mundane.

Dong Haichuan grew up in a village where he had to push the millstone around and around to grind the grains into flour.

Image

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 11:14 am

Tom, lmao, ooops I just realized that the fault in miscommunication lies entirely on me, because I initially wrote “In a fight…”
:-\


Technically speaking though, in YSB we train stepping on the square, 90 degree angles, where in actual usage that degree of angle shrinks down.

Sorry for all the grief :-[

But, IMO, a good discussion did come about from it

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 12, 2022 11:17 am

D_Glenn,

Not really, Phillips, like everyone else who does Bagua ignores the Mongolian connection. It's my pet theory, and I'm sticking to it. 8-) 9 years is a long time!
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 11:27 am

It’s great to explore theories. And I wouldn’t have known about that ritual if you hadn’t posted it. The teacup dancing from Mongolia is definitely a thing, but that probably made it into cultural China hundreds of years before DHC was born.

One issue with that theory is that Dong Haichuan was living in, and teaching the Prince and his guards for many years before they started doing tax collection in Northern China and Mongolia And he was doing Circle Walking (Zhuan Zhang/ Turning Palms) well before he ended up in Beijing.

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby jbb73 on Thu May 12, 2022 11:46 am

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Tom on Thu May 12, 2022 11:53 am

jbb73 wrote:Maybe that one:

https://youtu.be/8k0JZUgIapQ


Ha yes! That's the first thing that sprang to mind when DHC was described as pushing a millstone.

Except Conan is not mudstepping so that can't possibly be the origins of walking the circle . . . ;)
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby johnwang on Thu May 12, 2022 12:15 pm

One reason of circle walking for me is to line up my back foot with my opponent's both feet. When that happen, I'lll move in and attack.

If my opponent

- doesn't turn with me, 1 step may be enough.
- turns with me, I may need many steps.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Doc Stier on Thu May 12, 2022 12:47 pm

windwalker wrote:Some styles use circle walking as an intrinsic part of their method and strategies,
without it much of the method wouldn't work.

That's definitely true of the older Sun Style which I learned. Circle walking methods are taught for use in actual fighting applications, not merely as a training method focused on other agenda priorities. As always, ymmv.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Doc Stier on Thu May 12, 2022 1:02 pm

GrahamB wrote:Now that we've all agreed that circle walking isn't "martial".... It's obvious to me that circle walking is a basic shamanic practice that has existed for thousands of years - often around a bonfire.

The place where shamanism has survived and thrived the longest seems to be Mongolia.

Where did Dong Hai Chuan and Yin Fu go collecting taxes for 9 years? Mongolia.



Bagua's Deer horn knives = representation of fire wheel = representation of shaman's drum?

Image

Warrior God NeZha:

Image


Shaman from Siberia:

Image

I am an Oglala Lakota American Indian with extensive experience in the shamanic Wicasa Wakan practices indigenous to our people. All traditional dances are done in a leftward moving counterclockwise circle. Although war dances have a 'martial' quality inherent to the purpose of the dance, most dances do not, but all are performed with 'circle walking' movement.

Beautiful deer horn knives with the eight trigrams incorporated into the design. Very nice! 8-)
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 1:08 pm

With ‘Scissor Thigh Stepping’ one’s own feet are tracking too close to each other. It’s great for continually squeezing and releasing the sacrum in order to get the Daoist Yoga benefits, but if someone came and attacked you while you were circling walking you would have to quickly change into a wider stance. That, in a nutshell is the reason why we say it’s not applicable.

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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby windwalker on Thu May 12, 2022 1:33 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
windwalker wrote:Some styles use circle walking as an intrinsic part of their method and strategies,
without it much of the method wouldn't work.

That's definitely true of the older Sun Style which I learned.
Circle walking methods are taught for use in actual fighting applications, not merely as a training method focused on other agenda priorities. As always, ymmv.


Everything we practiced was for "fighting"

In the TWC we had a stepping training running around the circle coupled with some interesting stepping actions,,,
called "flying crane".

No longer an active practitioner of the style.

My taiji style as practiced from my teacher has a lot of inner - bagua influence which only lately have I come to see
in the outer movements...

He started bagua in 1945, Beijing.
Practiced for 17yrs before meeting his last teacher, a taiji master not named....

Never asked him about who his bagau teacher might have been, he mentioned he was undefeated until meeting the taiji master who later would be his future taiji teacher. .

There were others in his group who still practiced bagua.
Interesting enough one of them showed me a square stepping pattern...
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