Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 7:43 pm

edededed wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:More often than not, when a student asks a question, Jinbao lights up and says “aha, there’s actually a Song that answers that.” Then he sings it.


Sings - as in, are there pitches/tones to the songs, too?! :D (Might make the songs easier to remember, actually...)

BTW - curious about the 8 animal styles - have you learned all/most of them? Are they like completely different styles (shenfa, bufa, shoufa, etc.)? Is it quite difficult (even confusing) to transition from one style to another? The video showing He Jinbao demonstrate them was quite interesting, but I wanted to hear from a practitioner, and I know you've been doing this for a while!

It sounds like children’s rhymes. Dr. Xie made Jinbao commit all of them to memory. He said there’s a lot of songs in our bagua. Each animal has their own, plus all the extra Yin Style songs like the 2 I found from another Yin Style lineage.
He used the same method he used to memorize them to also remember interesting articles about Internal Chinese Arts. There’s a Yiquan guy who’s written a lot, forgot his name, he can recite some of his essays.

It’s been awhile since I’ve been on here, so yes, very different. But they don’t have overlapping skills. They still are unique ways to attack. I’ve seen a bit more monkey and it’s got a lot of kicks, even jump kicks, but a major aspect to it is for fighting against someone who is trying to kick you. The form I know is a counter to a side/ roundhouse kick.

The Rooster is crazy. Way beyond what I imagined but it’s actually pretty ingenious in how it works. It would work great as a defense in the Western world, and easier than most the other animals for a Westerner to grasp. But the physicality from Standing in its postures is hard. “Rooster Hurts” is its motto.

The snake is just a whole other world. It’s beyond brutal. I don’t know that there’s an equivalent to it. I think the way to sum it up is that the techniques create the forms, rather than a form encompassing a lot of techniques.
He tried teaching the Unicorn but apparently nobody was able to get it, so he gave up, for the time being anyways. My thought is that it’s reliance on the Fan Lang Jin movement of the spine and sacrum makes it hard to get power without having that. The little of it that I’ve seen and felt is pretty cool. It’s very old school Chinese, actually a lot like Chuo Jiao but without the foot strengthening. The back of your leg is what’s hitting the opponent in the “Hip” method. But FLJ movement is introduced in the Rooster. And I figured out that the Crab System that DHC taught Ma Gui, is actually just a modified Rooster. It might of have had some Unicorn it still but after seeing the actual Rooster I don’t think very much anymore. My wrists are permanently jacked from Skateboarding (sprained too many times and now they don’t bend back far enough), so the normal Rooster just won’t work out for me, but I can do it with the Crab Palms. So I’m developing my Fan Lang in that, to prepare for the Unicorn.


.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu May 12, 2022 8:18 pm

edededed wrote:Hi, D. Did you learn the lianwuzhang, too? Curious if you felt it was also similar to baguazhang in specific ways. (Since I don't know the set, it just kind of feels like "random longfist/mantis form" to me ;D )

I think generally, any northern CMA will have influence from "Shaolin" - or rather, just classical northern CMA. So of course doing some of that will lead to some insights.


How's it going, Ed? My personal experience is I and a lot of other disciples learned a ton of forms without being taught how it was supposed to be trained or what part of the system did what. We're left to piece that together ourselves. I was explicitly told by one famous teacher "my job is to show you one corner of the cloth, your job is to find the other three" and everything I've experienced has confirmed that.

The only thing people think of when they think of BGZ is spinning like a ballerina on cocaine. If you aren't constantly turning in circles, no one knows what to do with it. In the old days students were taught linear single movement sets like the 8 punches, 8 palm strikes, 8 kicks, etc. that were meant to be applied AS STRIKES which then formed the basis of later BGZ application. This is what that looked like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb4eB3j88-s
Problem is modern people see what CPL is doing there and have no idea at all what he's doing or what to do with it themselves. We're so saturated with forms that nothing else penetrates. Linear single moves then get combined into 2-3 movements, the sets can get a bit mixed and you wind up with a combined form. In Gao style, it's called a "linking form."

My translation in the initial post clearly said that this shaolin form is direct just like POST HEAVEN STRAIGHT LINE BGZ but again, the straight line stuff hasn't really penetrated into people's heads. for example, the Gao style linear BGZ has jump kicks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Gwi5DoxY4
If we can accept that BGZ is actually supposed to include actually striking people with the palms and actually kicking people besides turning like a frog stuck in a blender, then watching the following clip may actually show kou bu used several times, leading into actual sweeps, and palm strikes that come right out of WSJ's book Bagua Linked Palms (not all of them of course, it is the lian WU zhang, after all).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuGwrYVpcCQ&t=2s
I suggest watching at .25 speed for analysis.
All five of these palms are included in WSJ's book: https://blog.xuite.net/taichi99/99taichi/365799821#
Last edited by Formosa Neijia on Thu May 12, 2022 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby edededed on Thu May 12, 2022 9:04 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
edededed wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:More often than not, when a student asks a question, Jinbao lights up and says “aha, there’s actually a Song that answers that.” Then he sings it.


Sings - as in, are there pitches/tones to the songs, too?! :D (Might make the songs easier to remember, actually...)

BTW - curious about the 8 animal styles - have you learned all/most of them? Are they like completely different styles (shenfa, bufa, shoufa, etc.)? Is it quite difficult (even confusing) to transition from one style to another? The video showing He Jinbao demonstrate them was quite interesting, but I wanted to hear from a practitioner, and I know you've been doing this for a while!

It sounds like children’s rhymes. Dr. Xie made Jinbao commit all of them to memory. He said there’s a lot of songs in our bagua. Each animal has their own, plus all the extra Yin Style songs like the 2 I found from another Yin Style lineage.
He used the same method he used to memorize them to also remember interesting articles about Internal Chinese Arts. There’s a Yiquan guy who’s written a lot, forgot his name, he can recite some of his essays.

It’s been awhile since I’ve been on here, so yes, very different. But they don’t have overlapping skills. They still are unique ways to attack. I’ve seen a bit more monkey and it’s got a lot of kicks, even jump kicks, but a major aspect to it is for fighting against someone who is trying to kick you. The form I know is a counter to a side/ roundhouse kick.

The Rooster is crazy. Way beyond what I imagined but it’s actually pretty ingenious in how it works. It would work great as a defense in the Western world, and easier than most the other animals for a Westerner to grasp. But the physicality from Standing in its postures is hard. “Rooster Hurts” is its motto.

The snake is just a whole other world. It’s beyond brutal. I don’t know that there’s an equivalent to it. I think the way to sum it up is that the techniques create the forms, rather than a form encompassing a lot of techniques.
He tried teaching the Unicorn but apparently nobody was able to get it, so he gave up, for the time being anyways. My thought is that it’s reliance on the Fan Lang Jin movement of the spine and sacrum makes it hard to get power without having that. The little of it that I’ve seen and felt is pretty cool. It’s very old school Chinese, actually a lot like Chuo Jiao but without the foot strengthening. The back of your leg is what’s hitting the opponent in the “Hip” method. But FLJ movement is introduced in the Rooster. And I figured out that the Crab System that DHC taught Ma Gui, is actually just a modified Rooster. It might of have had some Unicorn it still but after seeing the actual Rooster I don’t think very much anymore. My wrists are permanently jacked from Skateboarding (sprained too many times and now they don’t bend back far enough), so the normal Rooster just won’t work out for me, but I can do it with the Crab Palms. So I’m developing my Fan Lang in that, to prepare for the Unicorn.


.

.



Cool - Chinese folks do generally seem to have great memory skills, it also helps of course that the songs are in their native tongue!

Great to hear that you've continued to train and develop those skills and had more opportunities to learn with He Jinbao.

The 8 animals systems definitely seem like they have a great technical repertoire. It's a shame that He Jinbao gave up on teaching the unicorn (for now?)! I would bet that you would probably be able to learn it at least (your deep understanding and long experience must be an aid, and it looks like you're already planning for it :) )...

It strikes me as a great way to divide the strategies while still merging them as a system - like so you could mentally be using the lion (whole body power! Yaaargh), but then switch to dragon (more coily from the legs?), etc. But if the body methods are quite different it could also be challenging or confusing I guess.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby edededed on Thu May 12, 2022 9:06 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:
edededed wrote:Hi, D. Did you learn the lianwuzhang, too? Curious if you felt it was also similar to baguazhang in specific ways. (Since I don't know the set, it just kind of feels like "random longfist/mantis form" to me ;D )

I think generally, any northern CMA will have influence from "Shaolin" - or rather, just classical northern CMA. So of course doing some of that will lead to some insights.


How's it going, Ed? My personal experience is I and a lot of other disciples learned a ton of forms without being taught how it was supposed to be trained or what part of the system did what. We're left to piece that together ourselves. I was explicitly told by one famous teacher "my job is to show you one corner of the cloth, your job is to find the other three" and everything I've experienced has confirmed that.

The only thing people think of when they think of BGZ is spinning like a ballerina on cocaine. If you aren't constantly turning in circles, no one knows what to do with it. In the old days students were taught linear single movement sets like the 8 punches, 8 palm strikes, 8 kicks, etc. that were meant to be applied AS STRIKES which then formed the basis of later BGZ application. This is what that looked like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb4eB3j88-s
Problem is modern people see what CPL is doing there and have no idea at all what he's doing or what to do with it themselves. We're so saturated with forms that nothing else penetrates. Linear single moves then get combined into 2-3 movements, the sets can get a bit mixed and you wind up with a combined form. In Gao style, it's called a "linking form."

My translation in the initial post clearly said that this shaolin form is direct just like POST HEAVEN STRAIGHT LINE BGZ but again, the straight line stuff hasn't really penetrated into people's heads. for example, the Gao style linear BGZ has jump kicks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Gwi5DoxY4
If we can accept that BGZ is actually supposed to include actually striking people with the palms and actually kicking people besides turning like a frog stuck in a blender, then watching the following clip may actually show kou bu used several times, leading into actual sweeps, and palm strikes that come right out of WSJ's book Bagua Linked Palms (not all of them of course, it is the lian WU zhang, after all).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuGwrYVpcCQ&t=2s
I suggest watching at .25 speed for analysis.
All five of these palms are included in WSJ's book: https://blog.xuite.net/taichi99/99taichi/365799821#




It's alright, thanks for asking. Hope you're doing well, too, D.

I agree that Chinese pedagogy is often like that (for better or for worse). It took a long time for me to wrap my Western-educated head around that.

Chen Panling: great video! I learned some Cheng style but not a lot, so it was quite interesting for me to see most of the line drills that he demonstrated (all except the last one) quite similar to line drills I learned in Liang style. That's great to see. (The only drill from Cheng style I saw before was the "rolling the ball" one that BKF showed on some videos, which again I learned in Liang.)

In Liang style the linear linking forms are the Liu Dekuan 64 hands, which do look more comparable to lianwuzhang and other more "classical" northern CMA sets, good point. (No jump kicks in this set, but there are some in some other linking sets. There was a jump kick in a Yin set I learned before, too.)

For lianwuzhang itself, I was actually kind of interested in this set because it seems to come from digongquan (a rare style now), but adopted in mantis styles where you can usually find it today, it mostly just looks like... mantis, at least to my uninitiated eyes. But maybe I can manage to learn it from someone one day, as often I only see things through practice.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 12, 2022 11:37 pm

Tom wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Song #22 is about it:
出手招招因人动,封闭对方最有功,步从三角转移灵,手取十字利化功
Roughly: the outgoing hand (chushou) should draw out the opponent to make them move. Then seal off the opponent’s movements. Your steps following the Triangle to quickly change. Use the “Cross Shape” hands to make the transforming work.


"Roughly" is putting it mildly. The word "Triangle" (三角形 Sānjiǎoxíng) is not mentioned anywhere in that song. I know you're self-taught with Chinese characters, and translation necessarily involves a fair amount of interpretation based on personal understanding, but "your steps following the Triangle to quickly change" is something of an addition to the actual words rather suspiciously suited to this sub-conversation. ;D

Often multiple sequential Songs provide a helpful larger context:

Song 21
When a movement reaches its endpoint the body must turn,

Shed the body and transform into a shadow without leaving a trace.

All changes depend upon the steps,

The Yao extends first in entering and exiting, advancing and retreating.

Commentary:

Ba Gua Zhang there are numerous techniques, but at the extreme endpoint of a movement you must change and transform; at that moment the body must rotate and change. This is the method of shedding the body and transforming into a shadow without leaving a trace. No matter what changes and transformations take place, their foundation lies in the steps. The footwork must be precise, but also free and unrestrained when entering and exiting, advancing and retreating. The eyes must also be clear and all must be assisted by the Yao.

用到极处须转身,Yong Dao Ji Chu Xu Zhuan Shen,

脱身化影不留痕。Tuo Shen Hua Ying Bu Liu Hen.

如何变换端在步,Ru He Bian Huan Duan Zai Bu,

出入进退腰先伸。Chu Ru Jin Tui Yao Xian Shen.

Song 22
The spirit in turning the palm is transmitted from the neck bone,

In turning and twisting the neck, the hands must move first.

Shrink the neck when changing, extend it when issuing [force],

Like a spiritual dragon with head and tail linked.

Commentary:

The neck bone is the pillar of the head and body. The neck and head are connected to the spinal column, and it is easy to lose power if the head is slightly inclined. The nape is the back of the neck. To turn the nape means to turn the neck, which must be supported by the arm. In changing techniques, the neck it must shrink and withdraw in order to accumulate power. When applying techniques using the tricks, the neck must straighten in order to issue power. The neck extended and withdraws like a swimming dragon whose head and tail are linked.

转掌之神颈骨传,Zhuan Zhang Zhi Shen Jing Gu Chuan,

转项扭项手当先。Zhuan Xiang Niu Xiang Shou Dang Xian.

变时缩颈发时伸,Bian Shi Suo Jing Fa Shi Shen,

要如神龙首尾连。Yao Ru Shen Long Shou Wei Lian

Song 23
When striking the opponent with the hand, the shoulder as its root,

The shoulder cannot extend completely.

Therefor advance with the front foot when going forward,

It is futile to advance the rear foot.

Commentary:

The hands are employed when attacking and striking, but the force of hand and palm come from the root of the arm – the shoulder. The arm root is extended but also shrunk very slightly. Issuing force (Fa Li) must be supported by the step. As for the principle of advancing step, it has been talked about previously. In walking forward, it is necessary to walk with the front foot. If one enters with the back foot, the body can only advance a little and entering and Fa Li will be affected.

打人凭手膀为根,Da Ren Ping Shou Bang Wei Gen,

膀在肩端不会伸。Bang Zai Jian Duan Bu Hui Shen.

故欲进时进前步,Gu Yu Jin Shi Jin Qian Bu,

若进后步枉劳神。Ruo Jin Hou Bu Wang Lao Shen.


https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/ba-gua-zhangs-36-songs-revisited-songs-13-to-24/

This is Tom Bisio's interpretation (based on his extensive and practical personal experience with a variety of baguazhang teachers) of a sequence of the 36 Songs, 21-24 specifically. Triangle stepping is not mentioned in there. However, Tom refers to triangle stepping extensively in practice, drawing on his extensive experience with escrima (especially Pekiti Tirsia) which he trained and fought with for years before encountering the CIMAs (xingyiquan then baguazhang). His use of it again does not seem to be along the lines of how you described triangle stepping above.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Byo1T04n1g&t=50s

I mention Tom Bisio's approach because I enjoyed some recent training opportunities with Tom and his school, so that is the "freshest" baguazhang training in my experience (though my overall experience is more based in Cheng baguazhang).

I'm happy to leave this sub-conversation here so as not to continue distracting from this thread, but welcome any clarification/insight you may have either here or via PM. Thanks. :)

My song #22 is from Shi Jidong’s 36 songs, not the normal 36 songs that’s more commonly seen, and which Tom Bisio is translating.

They’re completely different. Totally different topics and subject manner. Some of the songs are similar but not numerically.

The word triangle is not in the song Bisio translated but it is in Shi Jidong’s.

I am completely self taught, but I’d wager that even a monkey wouldn’t be able to make that huge of a mistake LoL.

.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Fri May 13, 2022 7:18 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:Yes, this is how many BGZ people do it and it's fundamentally wrong. This will never work, as you have pointed out a couple of times. Nor is Wayne correct on this. He's wrong and it shows a weakness of this style of training. You don't WAIT for the opponent to move then do a two-step -- you move first. YOU TAKE THE ANGLE YOURSELF, not let him move and then angle off. You attack on the first step off the centerline. Again, the Filipino arts do this better than anyone but i can never get anyone to even engage that point. They actually have diagrams you follow, not "songs" that no one can apparently translate or do correctly but it shows the same thing.
Image
If you don't train to take the angle first yourself, then your reflexes and stepping will always be too slow. You get one beat (1, not 1-2) to make it work. You only get that by training to attack.
Here are two examples from Ma Wei-qi BGZ:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uNJU7eNszPg
This is direct stepping and punching with the forward foot on the initial angle of the triangle.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DvoV5hNdd3w
This is direct stepping and attacking at the same time with the back leg. This is not as good as the first one.

A large part that is missing from the discussion is that the sanjiaobu/qixingbu is just the beginning. You eventually put them together and then you have the diamond and the hourglass. This is where how to apply this stepping becomes clearer. The reason this makes it clearer is that the real application on the second strike is also a diagonal, not a straight side move as the triangle stepping would suggest.

I think both you and Tom are conflating what I wrote with some notion of a Triangle step that you already have.

So let me try to clear it up on my end.

In the Baguazhang I practice. (The bagua you practice might be the same or it might not. I can only speak to what I know. So no insult intended.) Every single step taken, in YSB, needs to try to coincide with a strike or contact with the opponent. On that first initial step of an encounter/ assault, or what will become the first corner point of the triangle, your arm has struck and met some spot on the opponent’s body. You want to maintain that connection so the next step needs to be as close to the opponent as you can get. And it coincides with your second arm striking. So now you’ve made two steps and two strikes, and have two points of contact but ideally you want three because that second step should have been close enough to have your leg touching their leg. Now this third strike is where a triangle comes in. Note that this will likely never be an Equilateral Triangle, nor even an Isosceles Triangle. Just some type of Scalene Triangle. And this of course won’t always be true. But the next, most optimal placement for whichever foot needs to move to and land, will most likely end up being on a third point that will be in between the first two points and close the triangle. If it doesn’t, then that’s perfectly okay. It’s just that the stepping and application of techniques would be more Xingyiquan rather than bagua.

Here’s just a very small sample of what the triangle patterns might look like in YSB:

Image

There is never going to be, nor is there, (thank Christ) stepping patterns like in that picture you just posted. That is kind of crazy IMHO.

The subsequent Baguazhang songs about Diagonal and Straight (tangential / horizontal or parallel to the opponent); or first Straight then Diagonal. Is just a guideline to ensure that the closed Triangle could come about.

.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 13, 2022 7:43 am

Tom wrote:As you know, baguazhang can go inside or outside in responding to an attack. Even when going outside, baguazhang stepping is more stepping by the opponent, just off the vector of attack. With either gate, though, the stepping is not really in a triangle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAIR1Fp2iM&t=199s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvt7D4OfunU&t=322s

The timing in stepping, between the Guo Shilei and Hai Yang videos, is different. At :36, Guo Shilei says, "TCMA maxim is 'Finish (the fight) with a move without parrying; once you parry it turns into a slugfest.'... Again, intercept the opponent before the opponent has managed to complete his move.

Formosa Neijia wrote:Second, i agree it's too slow as done by most people for the exact reason you mentioned: lack of any real sparring. The initial strike has to happen as you step offline, waiting until the step is complete makes it a two-step process and will get you clocked....

You don't WAIT for the opponent to move then do a two-step -- you move first. YOU TAKE THE ANGLE YOURSELF, not let him move and then angle off. You attack on the first step off the centerline....

If you don't train to take the angle first yourself, then your reflexes and stepping will always be too slow. You get one beat (1, not 1-2) to make it work. You only get that by training to attack.
Here are two examples from Ma Wei-qi BGZ:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uNJU7eNszPg
This is direct stepping and punching with the forward foot on the initial angle of the triangle.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DvoV5hNdd3w
This is direct stepping and attacking at the same time with the back leg. This is not as good as the first one.

An example from MMA.

Thompson lures (yin) Masvidal to jab. As Masvidal jabs, Thompson side steps and issues right cross:

Image
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby johnwang on Fri May 13, 2022 11:50 am

Tom wrote:Image

Thanks for showing this clip. This is why when in circle walking, you always move your back foot first to line up with your opponent's feet. If your opponent doesn't turn with you, 1 step should be enough. You can then enter from there. Your footwork is exacyly a triangle.

Image
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby gerard on Wed May 18, 2022 8:54 pm

Bagua has no connection with any of the Shaolin hard stuff (and Buddhism) I'm afraid. Circle walking is the root of the art and it's purely Taoist and heavily connected to ancient Chinese Medicine; eg. The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine (Neijing Suwen).
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Bao on Thu May 19, 2022 11:04 am

gerard wrote:Bagua has no connection with any of the Shaolin hard stuff (and Buddhism) I'm afraid.


That is the common "understanding"....

Circle walking is ... heavily connected to ancient Chinese Medicine; eg. The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine (Neijing Suwen).[/quote]

Where is your source for the connection between circle walking and the medical classic?
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby johnwang on Thu May 19, 2022 11:36 am

gerard wrote:Circle walking is the root of the art and it's purely Taoist and heavily connected to ancient Chinese Medicine;

The circle walking/running is not unique in Bagua.

Image

Image
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby GrahamB on Fri May 20, 2022 3:10 am

Circle walking is in everything:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqeqZ6d8GaQ

1.55 here.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby gerard on Fri May 20, 2022 3:13 am

Hi Tom,

I pointed out the basic yet deep stuff. It's the practitioner's task to find out how deep you are willing to go and with this art there are certainly NO LIMITS.

Hi Bao,

My personal practice. I remember having a forum discussion on the deceased Emptyflower forum with Michael Guen about this art and back then I didn't quite grasp what he meant. This was in 2012. I started this journey in 2008, but back then I was very focused on forms and loved the Wushu aspect of it. Performing rather than exploring. It took me several years more to find out the following:

1. The deep connection with the internal organs that deep practice will take you to.
2. What if rather than forms you focus on circle waking holding one Palm only for the entire session for a period of time. It's entirely up to you how long you practice this way.

Well I stuck to these two points and oh boy! the profound transformation that followed after 4 years of focusing on simplicity over form was staggering.

Bagua has a very deep connection with ancient Chinese Medicine, this is why I made that comment. Only when practiced that way.

Hi johnwang,

The similarities between the video you linked and Ba Gua Quan are nil. The Taoist art will transform you into a new human being, if practised with depth in mind.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Fri May 20, 2022 10:36 am

So there are a myriad list of physical enhancements that come about from Circle Walking (in the the practice specific to Baguazhang). Even 10 minutes a day will derive some physical enhancements. Agility, balance, overcoming the vertigo that happens when someone first starts practicing, forearm strength and resilience to impact (which is crucial because 95% of BGZ is using the forearms to strike and defense against an opponent striking you.), strengthening the knees when doing ‘Scissor Thigh Stepping’ along with Bai and Kou because you’re putting the knees through their full range of motion (caveat- sliding the foot on the ground can damage the patellar tendon in the knees which could end up being net negative and end someone’s circle walking career.), strengthening of the legs from continually walking at a lower than normal height, strengthening and stretching the muscles and fascia of the abdomen/ waist, the list goes on… but all things that will benefit the individual as a martial artist.

There are times when a kind of circling around someone during throwing applications can happen, and with great effect (I’ve been on the receiving end of one application where I was being spun around on my central axis so fast that both my legs were flung out, I spun 360 and dropped straight down on my behind and kept spinning a little bit more.) But that is an application and the manner of stepping used to achieve it is similar, but only works because there was no way I could affect him or unbalance his stepping.

We say Circle Walking, in and of itself, is not really martial because if someone attacked you while in the midst of practicing it (using ‘Scissor Thigh Stepping’) you would have to take at least one decent sized step outside, or to the inside of the circle in order to defend yourself.

But the real benefits of Circle Walking come from an hour or hours a day practicing it. These are the mental benefits. Without any knowledge of the inner workings of cells and molecules inside the human body. Practitioners of old had to just completely rely on feelings and changes in their mental and physical State (Zhuangtai, which is a term often found in Daoist texts). So terminology was made up to label these changes. The Micro and Macrocosmic Orbit was chosen to describe one of the primary changes that one can hope to bring about during a practice session. With the advances in Medical Technologies and in particular MRI’s used in conjunction with injected dyes, they discovered a function of sacrum, spinal column and brain, where there is a sudden increase in Cerebral Spinal Fluid CSF, when a certain brainwave frequency is reached, which can trigger the Glial cells in the brain, to release their Intracellular Fluids which increases the whole volume of total CSF. Which circulates around the brain and eventually drains down the front into the cervical lymphatics into the spleen. Normally this only happens during the first few hours of sleep in mammals. But getting this process to happen an extra time, or two, during the day can explain nearly all the mental benefits that one sees in individuals who become “Enlightened”, or described as “True People” (Zhen Ren) in Daoism.

So it’s a practice that can derive both martial and mental benefits. And for the active martial artist who is fighting and doing sparring, and throwing exercises, then the increase in CSF during the change, can help to alleviate the inflammation and causes of concussions that occur during the training sessions.

So it’s a win win. Two birds are killed with one stone.

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Last edited by D_Glenn on Fri May 20, 2022 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Quigga on Sat May 21, 2022 1:57 am

Nice explanation D_Glenn :-)
Quigga

 

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