Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Bao on Tue May 10, 2022 12:29 am

Doc Stier wrote:I can certainly see some similarities between the Yin Fu Style and the movement patterns and postures in the Shaolin videos above, which is understandable, since Yin Fu had previous training and acknowledged expertise in northern Shaolin methods before learning from Tung Hai-Chuan.

I don't see those similarities, however, in the forms or drills of the Sun Style or Cheng Style, which both display a distinctively different body method, different power generation methods, and different power issuing methods than what is seen in the posted Shaolin forms, as well as a much different signature stylistic expression in the movements. They are not, imo, just borrowed movements from Shaolin forms performed on a circle .


Well, I guess everything depends on how you compare things and what values you focus on. I've practiced with people from different Yin and Cheng Bagua lineages. And I can see that different yin style lineages are very different. They are like different styles in many ways. And because they are practiced and taught in very different ways, the outcome of long time practice will be different.

However, the Yin animals all have very distinct body methods. They are like 8 different styles, all are complete fighting styles using the body differently. So studying a complete Yin bagua school in general, is like learning 8 different Martial arts. My friend who studied in Beijing for He Jinbao a few years left a while after his teacher introduced a new, "soft" animal. He said that it was too different and that he needed more time before he could practice those animals together, because the body method and mechanics was just too different to what he was used to. His body could not make the switch to the new way.

Cheng style (and thus Sun style which is based on Cheng) however, is said to be based on the Dragon solely. Apparently this was the animal which suited Cheng's wrestling background the best. So this style is based on one way of moving and using the body one way. The body mechanics might be more basic or more advanced, but it's still the same body mechanics.

We should remember that Yin Fu accompanied Dong Haichuan 9 years as a tax collector, thus no other student was closer to Dong as Yin and spent as much time with him. It's reasonable to suggest that Dong taught Yin Fu a more complete art and that his style should be more complex. At least, Yin had a lot of time while travelling, creating his own complex style. And then later, all of his students developed the same art, in different ways according to their own prerequisites and personalities.

This says nothing about which Bagua style today or lineage that is closer to the original Bagua, or to the original sources, or which one that is the "best". My point is just that the outcome and external appearance can differ a lot depending on your own focus, how you have practiced for a very long time, and does not necessarily have to do with a certain tradition being closer or more far a way from an original source.

Just my 0,5 cents.
Last edited by Bao on Tue May 10, 2022 12:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby edededed on Tue May 10, 2022 1:50 am

Tom wrote:But it is interesting that the 36 Songs and 48 Methods attributed to Dong Haichuan's direct verbal instructions do not provide any real detail on circle-walking


I thought that the first few songs of the 36 are instructions for circle-walking (specifically the pushing mill posture).
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby edededed on Tue May 10, 2022 1:53 am

Bao wrote:However, the Yin animals all have very distinct body methods. They are like 8 different styles, all are complete fighting styles using the body differently.


Yin style has so much diversity that this statement is only true for one sub-style of one Yin style (which happens to have more exposure in the West than most of the others).

Imagine if all the Yin styles got together - they could make a super Yin style (with sooo much content that nobody would ever master it)! It would be like 8 x 8 complete fighting styles, at least ;D
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 8:17 am

Actually Yin Fu only did a lot of qigong and a martial art style called’Snake Tongue Boxing’ before he got to study with DHC.

DHC had created a hybrid martial art that combined a Lohan form with circular stepping and circle walking to teach all the aristocrats inside the forbidden city. He told Yin Fu that he might lose his head if they ever found out what it really was.

Yin Fu would later take over those duties, but Gong Baotian was the one who really continued on the teaching of the Luohan form even well after 1911. It was generally used as a test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The actual Baguazhang that Yin Fu learned from DHC was ‘Chuan Zhang’ (Penetrating Palms) which is just a fast hands striking style, similar to his previous’Snake Tongue Boxing style. It’s not reliant on Internal Body-Methods to add power because it’s just stepping and using lightning fast hand strikes to fight.

In Yin Fu’s own martial art school, after a student was accepted as an Inner Door student they would first learn ‘Chuan Zhang’ because it was the fastest way to become a proficient Bagua fighter. Which was crucial in those times because every Inner Door was immediately a representative of their particular school. And reputation of schools was a key importance.

Then there are the Eight Animals that Yin Fu was taught. Which is where all the Internal Body-Methods come into play. The Animals are Internal Martial Arts, while the Luohan and Chuan Zhang are just External Martial Arts.
The most prominent and widespread of the Animals is of course the Dragon because it’s the Shuai Jiao-esque (Wrestling and Throwing) Animal of Baguazhang, and since Cheng Ting Hua was studying Shuai Jiao, DHC taught him the Dragon. And most all of the students that CTH brought to study directly under DHC also learned Dragon.

DHC of course taught some of his other students different animals but for one reason or another, those schools never prospered or spread quickly enough. And later in the 20s and 30s, the few students of those schools would encounter a lot of people doing Dragon style Baguazhang which looked completely different than the style they were doing. Which of course lead to all sorts of questions about lineage and authenticity.

DHC traveled all over China learning every martial art he could learn. But the key thing to understand is that any martial artist, in those times, if they wanted to live long enough to be able to teach others, they had to be able to fight with weapons. Martial arts in those times were weapon based. So the Eight Animals are each based around a different type of weapon. Using Daoist principles and training the weapon in tight small diameter circles developed a high power of Internal Body-Methods and mechanics. The animals can still be practiced with weapon in hand and you can feel how the weight or shape of the weapon dictates the Body-Method.

So rather than learning two different forms- 1 for a weapon and another 1 for empty hand/ disarmed/ unarmed fighting. The Animal Weapons forms were also developed, by DHC, into stand-alone hand combat forms.

(DHC emphasized that a good martial artist should be really good with one weapon. But a great martial artist should be proficient in at least 3 weapons. So that idea of 3 carried on even after the ban of cold weapons.)

So trying to find a style of martial art that preempted DHC’s Eight Animals just won’t exist, because all he did was take weapons forms and do them in a small room.

But of course the Luohan based forms look like Shaolin because they literally are Shaolin :D

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue May 10, 2022 8:17 am

Doc Stier wrote:With all due respect for your personal opinion...


That's just it -- I translated that from what he said. It's Chen Pan-ling's words, not my personal opinion. So it holds quite a bit of weight with me as someone in his lineage. Again, CPL's words aren't meant to satisfy modern people's desire for concrete answers. I merely posted this because I think it's worth considering what he said and I had not heard anyone mention it before.

I think many of you are looking for an academic answer and that doesn't interest me at all. Truth doesn't usually come looking all pretty with a bow on top of it. And when it does, it's usually fake. What I'm interested in is training so when I see something like this, it tells me to look at the shaolin even more than I have, especially when further research shows this might be important. For some systems, the shaolin is an integral part of the family training but exactly how much and what its supposed to do is sometimes unclear. Modern students are left to tease that out. That's why I'm saying this about training, not an academic question for me.
Last edited by Formosa Neijia on Tue May 10, 2022 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Time to put the QUAN back in taijiQUAN. Time to put the YANG back in YANG style taiji.
User avatar
Formosa Neijia
Great Old One
 
Posts: 803
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:10 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Doc Stier on Tue May 10, 2022 10:51 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:With all due respect for your personal opinion...


That's just it -- I translated that from what he said. It's Chen Pan-ling's words, not my personal opinion. So it holds quite a bit of weight with me as someone in his lineage. Again, CPL's words aren't meant to satisfy modern people's desire for concrete answers. I merely posted this because I think it's worth considering what he said and I had not heard anyone mention it before.

I think many of you are looking for an academic answer and that doesn't interest me at all. Truth doesn't usually come looking all pretty with a bow on top of it. And when it does, it's usually fake. Modern students are left to tease that out. That's why I'm saying this about training, not an academic question for me.

That's totally disingenuous at best. You used my quote out of context in order to make it appear to be in reference to something other than your own personal opinions based upon assumptions and mind reading, which you do yet again with the post above. :o

There is absolutely no way for you to conclusively know what anyone else thinks regarding this thread topic unless they explicitly state their own opinion.

Put into proper context, my quoted preface was referring only to your stated opinion below, rather than any reference to Chen Pan-Ling.

Formosa Neijia wrote:
"This brings up an important distinction for me: how something could be very relevant to the style if you're in it...and yet get scoffed at by people outside of it. I think a lot of people look at this stuff and want all their personal doubts about something answered in one fell swoop... Most seem to think an ancestor style to BGZ will walk around in circles while probably wearing WuDang robes and a dork knob while carrying a fly whisk and then maybe they'll consider it because that's the only thing they want to see."

If you personally disagree with other opinions, that's certainly your right, just like everyone else here, but don't presume to tell us what we think, while implying that our opinions are incorrect if they differ from yours. ::)
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 2:12 pm

Here’s a song dedicated to circle walking:

THE ESSENTIAL SECRETS OF TURNING

转掌要求口诀
Zhuan Zhang Yao Qiu Kou Jue

Essential Secrets of Turning (Circle Walking)

转腰顶颈含着胸,后肘粘胸前手平。松肩坠肘塌住腕,肘手不离形似弓。
Zhuan yao ding jing han zhe xiong, hou zhou zhan xiong qian shou ping. Song jian zhui zhou ta zhu wan, zhou shou bu li xing si gong.

Turn the waist, stretch up the neck, concave the chest. The back elbow sticks tight to the chest [solar plexus], the front hand is held level. Relax the shoulders, the elbows fall [as if being pulled down by a weight], the wrist drops. The elbow and hand must not lose the shape of a curved bow.

大指挺力二指领,中指直力掌心空。四指五指合并住,鱼际合住小天星。
Dazhi ting li er zhi ling, zhongzhi zhi li zhang xin kong. Sizhi wuzhi hebing zhu, yu ji he zhu xiao tian zing.

The index finger is held strong and straight, the middle finger points to and leads the direction of the hand and is held strong and upright. The center of the palm is held hollow. The ring and little fingers are held together as one. The edges joined gathering the small heavenly star.

穿掌手形似瓦拢,大拽合力入劳宫。四指用力合并住,小臂按起向前挺。
Chuan zhang shou xing si wa long, da zhuai he li ru laogong. Si zhi yong li hebing zhu, xiao bi an qi xiang qian ting.

In the penetrating palm the hand has a shape similar to a spade trowel. The thumb is tightly held in, covering lao gong point. The four fingers squeeze together as one and are held straight with force. The forearm presses down and stabs straight forward.

蹲存膝胯足趟水,足趾抓地脚心空。三尖垂直成一线,三连一体变化生。
转掌要求头身正,四肢末梢贯力行。
Dun cun xi kua zu tang shui, zu zhi zhua di jiao xin kong. San jian chui cheng yi xian, san lian yi ti bianhua sheng. Zhuan zhang yao qiu tou shen zheng, Si zhi mo shao guan li xing.

Squat down, bend the knee, hip, and ankle like when crossing a river. The ten toes must grasp the ground while raising up the center of the feet. The three tips [(tip of the nose, tip of the fingers, tips of the toes)] must be aligned in a vertical line, the three must be linked as one when changing in order to develop skill. When turning (circle-walking) seek to keep the head and body upright to be correct. To be correct strength must extend out to the tips of the four limbs.

***

And in these 36 songs the first 6songs are about Circle Walking, then it more goes into Changing directions on the circle and applications:

THE 36 SECRET POEMS OF SHI JIDONG

史氏八卦掌锻炼要领三十六歌诀 Shi shi baguazhang duanlian yaoling sanshiliu ge jue

The Shi family's 36 secret songs of Bagua Zhang essentials.
一。头顶颌勾身正直,塌腰躬腿虚实步,沉肩坠肘伸前臂,扭腕挺掌拉食指。
Yi. Touding he gou shen zhengzhi, ta yao gong tui xu shi bu, chen jian zhui zhou shen qian bi, niu wan ting zhang la shizhi

1. The top of the head is held up, the chin is tucked, the body is straight and upright. Sink the waist, bend/ bow the legs, use empty and full stepping. Sink the shoulders, drop the elbows, extend out through the front arm. Twist the wrist, the palm is held firm and straight, pull back through the forefinger.

二。一臂伸推一臂屈,眼向伸臂虎口瞧,伸臂推把屈拉弦,好似弯弓射大雕
Er. Yi bi shen tui yi bi qu, yan xiang shen bi hu kou qiao, shen bi tui ba qu la xian, haosi wan gong she da diao.

2. The front arm is straight and pushing, the back arm is bent. The eyes look towards the out-stretched arm and gaze at the tiger's mouth. The front arm pushes and holds, the back arm is like pulling a bow string. It is like using a bow to shoot a big vulture. [this last line is referring to an old chinese tale]

三。虎口圆撑掌心凹,拉指挺掌指上翘,推把拉弦扩胸肺,屈膝行步腿脚健。
San. Hu kou yuan cheng zhang xin ao, la zhi ting zhang zhi shang qiao, tui ba la xian kuo xiong fei, qu xi xing bu tui jiao jian.

3. The tigers mouth is round the palm is held hollow. Pull the fingers back, the palm faces up, the fingers point upwards. Push and grab, pull the bow, expand out through the ribs strengthening the lungs. Walking with bent-knee stepping strengthens the legs.

四。屈膝躬腿趟泥步,外扣内直走圆圈,扭腰塌腰把肛提,形如推磨团团转。
Si. Qu xi gong tui tang ni bu, wai kou nei shi zou yuanquan, niu yao ta yao ba gang ti, xing ru tui mo tuan tuan zhuan.

4. Bend the knees and bow the legs imagine wading through thick mud. When walking the circle the outside foot hooks(kou) the inside foot steps straight. Twist the waist, sink the waist while holding and lifting up the perineum [huiyin point]. The form is like pushing a millstone around and around, turning in a circle.

五。身随步转手随手扭,扭腰扭颈塌腰鼓腹,配合呼吸化纳攻吐,屈膝躬腿脚趾抓地。
Wu. Shen sui bu zhuan shou suishou niu, niu yao niu jing ta yao gu fu. peihe huxi hua na gong tu, qu xi gong tui jiaozhi zhua di.

5. The body follows the stepping while turning the circle, the hands ride along with the body's twisting. Twist the waist, turn the neck, sink the waist and round the abdomen. Coordinate exhaling and inhaling, when changing breathe in, when attacking breathe out. Bend the knees, bow the legs, the toes grasp the ground.

六。走掌身躯莫倾斜,前俯后仰都禁忌。扭腰小腹紧贴股,步履沉着身平稳。
Liu. Zou zhang shen mo qingxie, qian fu hou yang dou du jinji, nui yao xiao fu jintie gu, bu luu chenzhou shen pingwen.

6. When walking and changing hands, the body must not lean to the sides. Stooping forward and leaning back, both are forbidden. Twist the waist, contract the abdomen to connect to the thighs. When walking, even on uneven ground, the stepping will be calm and composed and the whole body will appear level and steady.

七。势势动作左右练,循环往返不散顿,先向稳实求平正,神奇百变熟中生。
Qi. Shi dongzuo zuoyou lian, xunhuan wangfan bu san dun, xian xiang wenshi qiu ping zheng, shenqi bai bian shu zhong sheng.

7. Power/force in the movements/changes is done on the left and right sides to perfect one's skill. Drilling back and forth, to and fro, the movement is not done leisurely or with breaks. First work on becoming steady and stable then seek to be level and exact. The mysterious will become known and will change and grow.

八。穿掌手贴肘下出,避实乘虚才有功,脚踏中门寻门路,斜出正入随人动。
Ba. Chuan zhang shou tie zhou xia chu, bi shi cheng xu cai you gong, jiao ta zhongmen xun men lu, xie chu zheng ru sui ren dong.

8. In the penetrating palm the hand goes out from below the elbow. Avoiding the solid parts and aiming for the gaps and soft areas is the skill that allows this strike to work. The feet tread the center door and seek out the way inside. The arm at a slant is struck straight to enter then it follows the opponent's movements.

***

Shi Jidong’s songs are similar to the Cheng Ting Hua versions, only it’s the first 3 (edit 4 thanks to Ededed) songs, of which “Pushing the Millstone” is the key terminology since that’s where DHC got the idea for Circle Turning.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby edededed on Tue May 10, 2022 5:22 pm

Tom wrote:
edededed wrote:
Tom wrote:But it is interesting that the 36 Songs and 48 Methods attributed to Dong Haichuan's direct verbal instructions do not provide any real detail on circle-walking


I thought that the first few songs of the 36 are instructions for circle-walking (specifically the pushing mill posture).


Postural and stepping details are indeed described in the first few of the 36 Songs (see example below). But the turning of a circle for an extended period of time is not described as a foundational or basic practice anywhere in the 36 Songs or 48 Methods that I can find (two different translations, one from Tom Bisio and one from Andrea Falk). In particular, the use of the curving step is described in a number of different places, but in connection with actual usage (for example, responding to a straight-line or angled attack). Circle-walking as a discrete foundational practice is not mentioned.


Although one can argue that the word "circle walking" does not preface the descriptions, I am curious to ask, what do you think they describe if not pointers on circle-walking?

In my view:

Song 1: Right away it clearly describes the pushing the mill posture (eyes through hukou) (but perhaps some might argue that one might do it in a stationary posture).
Song 3: (This song is translated a bit wrong) but the 1st line here describes how to step in circle walking (one step is straight, the other step is curved) - so clearly stepping is involved. "Pushing a millstone" adds a visual description of how the practice should be circular. The last line says "sway" but it also means "shake" - e.g. don't move up and down or left to right while walking the circle; this would be strange advice for a stationary posture.
Song 4: "marvelous" can also mean "odd" (as in odd numbers) - also, "single whip" is wrong, it should be "single direction" - so don't just practice rotating in one direction, do it both right and left.
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4122
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 5:45 pm

Actually 10 and 11 are also about circle walking:

十。走圈三盘逐步练,初练上盘架稍高,中盘屈膝势渐蹲,低盘讲求平膝胯。
Shi. Zou quan san pan zhubu lian, chu lian shang pan jia shao gao, zhong pan qu xi shi jian dun, di pan jiang qiu ping xi kua.

10. Walking the circle is progressively practiced at three different heights. The basic practice is the upper basin where you stand just a little lower than your normal height. The middle basin is done with bent knees, power comes from gradually squatting lower. The lower basin stresses getting the thighs level with the knees.

十一。舌抵上颚鼻呼吸,气沉丹田同导引,动作呼吸应配合,得机得势轻松灵。
Shiyi. She di shang e bi huxi, qi chen dantian tong daoyin, dongzuo huxi ying peihe, de ji de shi qingsong ling.

11. Press the tongue up against the roof of the mouth, breathe through the nose. Sink the qi down to the dantian like its being guided. Coordinate the movement together with the movement of exhalation and inhalation. To generate and deliver power you need to be relaxed and agile.

.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 5:57 pm

Just in case anyone thinks my translations show any bias, here’s Joseph Crandall’s translation of the same Shi Jidong 36 songs:


1. The head is held up. The chin is tucked in. The body is held straight. Depress the waist. Swell the belly. The steps are empty and full. Sink the shoulders. Hang the elbows. Reach with the front arm. Turn the wrist. Straighten the palm. Pull back the index finger.

2. One arm pushes out straight. One arm is bent. The eyes gaze at the tiger's mouth of the straight arm. The straight arm pushes and seizes. The bent arm pulls the bowstring. This is like using a bow to shoot a big vulture.

3. The tiger's mouth is curved. The palm is hollow. Pull back the fingers. Straighten the palm. The fingers are held upwards. Push and seize. Pull the bow. Defend the chest and lungs. The practice of bent knee stepping trains the leg skills.

4. Bend the knees and bow the legs. The steps are like walking in mud. In walking the circle, the outside foot turns inwards and the inside foot moves straight. Turn the waist. Depress the waist. Raise up the anus. The form is like pushing a grindstone round and round.

5. Turn the waist. Turn the neck. Depress the waist. Swell the belly. The foot grips the ground. The knees bend and the legs bow. The body follows the steps and the turning hands follow the body's movements. Weave together inhaling and exhaling and then transform them to chewing up and spitting out the enemy.

6. In walking, the palm and body should not lean to the sides. Do not lean forwards or backwards. Turn the waist and tighten the lower abdomen to connect the limbs. In stepping, the steps sink and the body has the appearance of being even and steady.

7. Moment is practiced on the left and right sides, Reciprocating without breaks or stopping. Aim for being stable and full. Become level and true. The spirit can tranform and grow from immature to mature.

8. In the piercing palm, the hand goes out under the elbow. Avoid the full and draw near the empty to achieve skill. The foot treads the center gate and searches out the way. The corner become the sides, enter and flow with the person's movements.

9. The hand method of the piercing palm must be remembered well. The rear hand pierces out and the front hand retracts. They must be mutually coordinated and complement each other. Mobility and agility display your talent.

10. In walking the circle, persue three levels in your stepping practice. First practice the upper level frame, which is high. The middle level bends the knees and the posture gradually squats. The lower level stresses getting the thighs level with the knees.

11. The tongue sticks to the upper palate. Inhale and exhale through the nose. The qi sinks to the dantian like being guided. Movement must be coordinated with the breathing. They complement each other and create agility.”

.

***
Tom,
The thing to understand is that Circle Walking is not directly applied when fighting. In a fight you use Triangle stepping- either a right side up triangle (step horizontally then enter diagonally), or an upside down triangle (step diagonally then enter horizontally). So there shouldn’t be any songs that pertain to Circle Walking being used in the manner in which it’s practiced, or rather, the student of Baguazhang would know that the usage of having the step following the arcing line of a circle’, is not a martial application. ;)


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 6:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 10, 2022 7:59 pm

Another thing to note, the Bai and Kou stepping patterns are in all the Shaolin forms.
Always, always, we start with toe out step and stop with toe in step, doing that we can move in a circle along the straight line of a form.
So, you can easily change, as DHC did, and invert into stepping with Bai and Kuo in a circle. Which some sections of Shaolin forms have a part where you are actually walking in a circle.
It's nothing new by the time of BGZ formation.

In my book, I listed a whole page of Bagua Quan styles from all over the northern provinces that did stepping in a circle.

So, yeah, maybe some Taoists did circle walking, but so did a lot of other styles.
Today, we have the privilege of being able to find out about many things from many people.
Back hundreds of years ago, no, people did not have access to so much information and didn't know that someone somewhere else was doing the same thing.

Plus, so many of BGZ students back then were involved with secret societies and from them they got a lot of influence from the CMA they practiced as well as from BGZ.
All written about in my book. Before he death, I got information from a Princeton scholar that researched all the last names of people involved in Beijing secret societies and lo and behold a good number of BGZ practitioners were on that list. The plum flower 9 palace stuff comes from them. lightness skills, and much more.
salcanzonieri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 5:44 pm
Location: Cary, North Carolina

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue May 10, 2022 9:47 pm

Doc Stier wrote:That's totally disingenuous at best. You used my quote out of context in order to make it appear to be in reference to something other than your own personal opinions based upon assumptions and mind reading, which you do yet again with the post above. :o


You need to relax, Doc. I didn't address anyone specifically including you in my previous posts so you shouldn't be taking this so personally. It was meant in general and I stand by what I said.

johnwang wrote:Also the Lian Wuzhang that I have learned is a 2 men form. ...

Yes, the lianwuzhang are practiced by some northern mantis groups and include a two-man form such as the one you showed above.

About the importance of shaolin, one of the major Yang style groups in Taiwan does a large amount of shaolin material which they hold in high regard. They go so far as to praise one of the shaolin two-man forms as holding some of the keys to applying taiji.......because.......wait for it.......they see shaolin as the origin of Yang style taiji. Now a lot of people's heads would explode over that statement and they would demand journal articles with footnotes which will never happen but this group wouldn't care, nor should they. The academic argument of whether or not shaolin is the origin or not doesn't concern them, what matters is they have a clear training progression that leads from one to the other and they have that in spades. Naysayers can scoff all they want.

It looks like CPL thought the same thing about BGZ.
Time to put the QUAN back in taijiQUAN. Time to put the YANG back in YANG style taiji.
User avatar
Formosa Neijia
Great Old One
 
Posts: 803
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:10 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby Quigga on Tue May 10, 2022 10:11 pm

Nice thread so far

Personally

I learned

Ways of moving in space and time

Movement can be a straight line, curve, spiral. There's nothing else

Imagine a sphere or ball

The intention can be guided, tracking the curvature of the sphere. It can cross or pierce the ball in a straight line. A spiral can be added to both.

Now if the ball were full of 'something' like sticky, high viscosity water - the intention would grab it and effect it. Like unlimited loose strings being pulled by a ghostly hand, moving out of nowhere seemingly - if you want to picture it in your mind

So far I have only talked about 'solo' practice so as to avoid potentially derailing debates

Once you have mapped out all possibilities of moving your own body in 3D space, it's a matter of applying qualities

Or rather it's a process of symbiotic growth

Quality can show new movement, quantifying it means mastery

Back and forth
Quigga

 

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby johnwang on Tue May 10, 2022 10:29 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:they see shaolin as the origin of Yang style taiji.

I believe Taiji came from long fist.



https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%e ... M%3DHDRSC3
Last edited by johnwang on Tue May 10, 2022 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

Postby D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 10:46 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:Another thing to note, the Bai and Kou stepping patterns are in all the Shaolin forms.
Always, always, we start with toe out step and stop with toe in step, doing that we can move in a circle along the straight line of a form.

I would argue that nearly every fighting style around the world uses bai and kou. In order to kick with your back leg then you have to bai/ open your front foot. Then when the kick comes back the front foot Kou/ hooks back in. The human body can only move in so many ways. Come to think of it even Gorillas and Chimpanzees use Bai and Kou. They must have have learned that from Shaolin :D

It’s not unique to Bagua, nor is it the thing that defines it. The only importance of it is when doing Circle Walking for long periods of time. It’s crucial to use bai and kou stepping when walking around in a small circle in order to increase the strength of the ligaments in your knees, instead of Ef’ing them up by practicing willy nilly i.e. without rules.

Now, older styles that genuinely did Circle Turning, using Daoist yoga principles (Xing Zhuang- moving around- Standing meditations), that would be interesting.

But note that Turning is not really martially applicable. It does however strengthen and harden the body extremely well for when you do go to use the martial skills that are developed from doing forms or single strike drilling.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue May 10, 2022 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests