Chen Pan-ling: Baguazhang comes from shaolin luohanquan

[D_Glenn]

Nice thread so far

Personally

I learned

Ways of moving in space and time

Movement can be a straight line, curve, spiral. There's nothing else

Imagine a sphere or ball

The intention can be guided, tracking the curvature of the sphere. It can cross or pierce the ball in a straight line. A spiral can be added to both.

Now if the ball were full of 'something' like sticky, high viscosity water - the intention would grab it and effect it. Like unlimited loose strings being pulled by a ghostly hand, moving out of nowhere seemingly - if you want to picture it in your mind

So far I have only talked about 'solo' practice so as to avoid potentially derailing debates

Once you have mapped out all possibilities of moving your own body in 3D space, it's a matter of applying qualities

Or rather it's a process of symbiotic growth

Quality can show new movement, quantifying it means mastery

Back and forth

Sorry man but your post made me think of Kevin Nealon from the movie Happy Gilmore



http://youtube.com/watch?v=OAs2PBL1RsA

.

[yeniseri]

CMA has always borrowed from each other! You have teacher X from Shandong going to Hebei Province and coming across this rural village and he incorporates a few routines into what he knows and "creates" his own style (pai) and become the Grandmaster of his own family martial heritage. WHo is going to know or find out? This rural Hebei village where no one has an interest in seeing so the origin is hidden until 200 years later where someone with a cellphone camera captures a similar sequence of movements that gets people thinking about Teacher Xs routine. This has always been the template of CMA, from my limited experience with taijiquan itself.

Based on Sal's own research, some routunes follow the original art lock, stock and barrel while others "jumbled or/and mix up the postures" with the intent of obscuring origin and it has worked wonderfully, to the dismay of us mere mortals
It seems (perception) that much of CMA does borrow Shaolin routines. BTW I talked to my Tibetan Taijiquan Ultra GrandMaster and he said..........

[everything]

Monkey see

Monkey do

[SCMT]

they see shaolin as the origin of Yang style taiji.

I believe Taiji came from long fist.



https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%e ... M%3DHDRSC3

There are many who would agree. The speculation was the Shaolin Temple was not that far from Chen Village and Shaolin Long Fist got to Chen village and combined with whatever martial art they were doing throw in some Tao Te Ching and you get Chen Family Taijiquan. Although I do not think the Chen family would agree.

As for me, there are so many origin stories about taijiquan many including Zhang Sanfeng and the dates put him all over Chinese history, different years, different dynasties.... I have no idea what to believe

[windwalker]

they see shaolin as the origin of Yang style taiji.

I believe Taiji came from long fist.



https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=%e ... M%3DHDRSC3

There are many who would agree. The speculation was the Shaolin Temple was not that far from Chen Village and Shaolin Long Fist got to Chen village and combined with whatever martial art they were doing throw in some Tao Te Ching and you get Chen Family Taijiquan. Although I do not think the Chen family would agree.

As for me, there are so many origin stories about taijiquan many including Zhang Sanfeng and the dates put him all over Chinese history, different years, different dynasties.... I have no idea what to believe

Why not believe the teacher...

One's taiji comes from / through their teacher....

If one does not agree with the teacher's skill set as something they feel is taiji or not...

Might be time to find a new teacher

The real question might be how does one know what "taiji" is

[johnwang]

Shaolin Long Fist ...

The long fist sytem Cha, Hua, Hon, Tan, Pao is trained in the northern Chinese muslim group. It has nothing to do with the Shaolin temple.

[SCMT]

Shaolin Long Fist ...

The long fist sytem Cha, Hua, Hon, Tan, Pao is trained in the northern Chinese muslim group. It has nothing to do with the Shaolin temple.

OK, my mistake, I have heard Shaolin Long Fist so often I think of it synonymously with Shaolin Kung Fu I should probably say this instead for purposes of correction, and not wanting to go research the origins of Long Fist at the moment beyond the fact it was thought to be heavily influenced by Shaolin Kung Fu and it apparently originated around the Song dynasty, which was not Muslim at the time.

You do realize I was originally agree with the possibility you put forth, right....And for the record, there is a lot of Changquan practiced in Beijing and Hebei, which is in the north, and not Muslim

Now the correction

Not sure many would agree with Long Fist specifically. The speculation is the Shaolin Temple was not that far from Chen Village and Shaolin Kung Fu got to Chen village and combined with whatever martial art they were doing, throw in some Tao Te Ching and you get Chen Family Taijiquan. Although I do not think the Chen family would agree. But Adam Hsu categorises Taiji and a Long Fist. There, is that better?

As for me, there are so many origin stories about taijiquan many including Zhang Sanfeng and the dates put him all over Chinese history, different years, different dynasties.... I have no idea what to believe

[SCMT]

Well that didn't take long...Shaolin Chāquán which falls under the classification of Chángquán and is considered to have been part of the origin of Taijiquan. Sorry for the mistake between Chāquán and Chángquán

[Quigga]

Nice thread so far


Back and forth

Sorry man but your post made me think of Kevin Nealon from the movie Happy Gilmore



.

Yeah man

[HotSoup]

Well that didn't take long...Shaolin Chāquán which falls under the classification of Chángquán and is considered to have been part of the origin of Taijiquan. Sorry for the mistake between Chāquán and Chángquán

Chaquan is as muslim as it gets. “Cha” in it is believed to originate from the Arabic name Jamil (Cha Mi).

[SCMT]

Well that didn't take long...Shaolin Chāquán which falls under the classification of Chángquán and is considered to have been part of the origin of Taijiquan. Sorry for the mistake between Chāquán and Chángquán

Chaquan is as muslim as it gets. “Cha” in it is believed to originate from the Arabic name Jamil (Cha Mi).

So you're saying I was originally correct saying Changquan, which is northern, when I was told I was wrong and it was muslim. Thank You
Not a Long Fist guy beyond believing it was Northern, and it being practiced in Hebei and Beijing. Thought it originated in Shaolin, of that I am not sure, but apparently it was heavily influenced BY shaolin Kung Fu

So telling me Changquan is specifically muslin and not associate with Shaolin is then incorrect, thank you

[johnwang]

OK, my mistake, I have heard Shaolin Long Fist so often ...

People used the Shaolin name for comercial purpose. My school used to be called "Northern Shaolin". My long fist brother Yang Jwing-Ming also used the name "Shaolin long fist". My long fist teacher (also Yang Jwing-Ming's long fist teacher) told me that I should use "plum flower long fist" or "muslim long fist" instead. In my long fist system, we train both plum flower long fist and muslium long fist. The "plum flower long fist" was trained by non-muslium people. The origin was "梁山 Liang Shan" (not Shaolin temple).

The Shaolin temple only has the long fist system 洪拳 Hong Quan branch. It's the only long fist branch that I didn't train. But I used the "northern Shaolin" as my school name. that's funny.

In other words, people (incude myself) may use the name "Shaolin" even if their CMA have nothing to do with it.

[SCMT]

I did some training with Yang Jwing-Ming many years ago; qinna and push hands

[yeniseri]

For my taijiquan training, exposure and experience, I know my taijiquan is of Yang style origin ( a la Chengfu ) though my studying other Yang style variants, I see so many variations within the same style that I no longer bother.
I practice but I tell no one!
The other Yang variants that I studied from Lu Hungping, Huo Chikwang and exposure to Zhang Dungsheng's 24 taijiquan adapted to shuaijiao still hasn't changed my core Yang taijiquan but after so many years, it makes no difference. I just practice as best as I can

For my baquazhang experience with Lu Hungping and Huo ChiKwang, it was elementary at best but I am satisfied with the documented history of said teachers. Sal and a few others researchers have amplified my knowledge base and I am grateful for the full attention to detail that many lack regarding the history of their 'lineage'. For the background of baquazhang, I have heard and have read that many masters studied Shaolin in one form or another and that provided the base of their training.

[Bob]

The trouble I have with the use of "Shaolin" is that many perceive it as the "source" of all Chinese martial arts - as one of my colleagues from India once remarked to me, "We know all Chinese martial arts finds its roots in India - the Shaolin temple proves it!"

In my thinking the "Shaolin" Temple was more of a layover of sorts and a refuge for those martial artists who were problematic in the political scene.

I, like Johnny Wang, prefer to think along the lines of long fist and other arts outside the temple that may have found its way into and through the temple.

I won't repeat the details again but my visit to the "Shaolin Temple" in 1998 was a complete bust - Contemporary Wushu hidden behind the robe of some 20 something Shaolin martial art masters.