Tom wrote:Thanks for posting this, Dave. It's something interesting to consider. CPL made a systematic study across styles with leading CMA exponents of the time. It's too bad he never talked to Sal C. here on the forum.
The distinction between xiantian training for body/connection and houtian straight-line application/usage forms is a common one in baguazhang.
...
But it is interesting that the 36 Songs and 48 Methods attributed to Dong Haichuan's direct verbal instructions do not provide any real detail on circle-walking--despite the emphasis on the practice in writings of later-generation students like Sun Lutang. IIRC the 36/48 do not contain any specific Daoist references either.
salcanzonieri wrote:Well, I have a whole chapter in my book that deals with Louhan Quan origin of Bagua Zhang.
It has always been said that in the palace Dong Hai Chuan taught Shaolin Louhan Quan. and some BGZ styles still contact some Louhan Quan forms...
Shaolin Louhan 8 Palms form, explained in my book, uses only the flat palm, not fists, in all the moves.
Eventually he grew tired of the Li’s games and decided to leave Wen An in about 1853. At this point in Dong’s life, the story becomes vague. He most likely went from Wen An to Kai Ko to live with his relatives.
Remember Dong Xian Zhou? It turns out that he was also a martial arts enthusiast and had become very well known in and around his village for his skill at
Ba Fan Quan.
He was so well known that bandits in the area avoided his village so they would not have to confront him.
It is very possible that while in Kai Ko, Dong Hai Chuan studied Ba Fan Quan with his relative Dong Xian Zhou.
Professor Kang’s investigation of Ba Fan Quan revealed that many of the movements and techniques of this style can be found in Dong Hai Chuan’s Ba Gua Zhang
Pa Kua Chang. Vol. 4, No. 6
Sept/Oct 1994
When doing my book, had a copy of Kang Ge Wu's book. Independently of him, I found the same info about who taught what to how and when in the area where Dong Hai Chuan was from and the styles that his relatives practiced contain elements that are in BGZ. Then once I read his thesis, I saw we both had the same set of info and conclusion, which was that Dong Hai Chuan studied martial arts with his elder cousin and others, he learned:
* Ba Fan Quan (八翻拳) - Eight Rotations Boxing of Ba Fan Men (八翻門) - Eight Rotations System
• Xing Quan (行拳) - Traveling / Walking in a Line / Row Boxing of Liuhe Men (六合門) - Six Harmony System’
• Jingang Quan (金剛拳) - Diamond / Vajra Boxing of Chuojiao Men (戳腳門) - Foot Poking System
• Hong Quan (红拳) - Red Fist (洪拳) / Flooding Fist of Shaolin Luohan Men (羅漢門)- Saints System.
salcanzonieri wrote:No no no, I don't base my assumptions on videos.
I ONLY show the videos to illustrate what I am talking about, that's all.
Formosa Neijia wrote:This brings up an important distinction for me: how something could be very relevant to the style if you're in it...and yet get scoffed at by people outside of it. I think a lot of people look at this stuff and want all their personal doubts about something answered in one fell swoop... Most seem to think an ancestor style to BGZ will walk around in circles while probably wearing WuDang robes and a dork knob while carrying a fly whisk and then maybe they'll consider it because that's the only thing they want to see.
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