the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Someone posts this video in another forum.

IMO, people try to make a big deal about "internal energy" or external energy. To counter a takedown, it depends on who controls who's arm/arms. It has nothing to do with "internal" or external.

Before you apply your takedown, you have to control your opponent's arm/arms first. If you can do that, your opponent's "internal enetgy" will have no effect on you.

In the following 2 clips, they control their opponent's arm by "reverse arm drag". The couter should be "how to deal with your opponent's arm drag?" and not "how to use your internal energy?"

Is there "internal" way to deal with arm drag and external way to deal with arm drag? I don't think so.

What's your opinion on this?

it might depend in large part on what strawman or wrong or limited understanding someone has of "internal".

if taijiquan is "slow shaolin", I'd have to agree to "just do shuaijiao" not taijiquan.

if it's "fascia this or that", same conclusion.

if it's "structure this or that", same conclusion.

if there is some "energy", as in neijia is related to neigong, this gets much more difficult... but people here lose their shit or immediately have to knock down some strawman, like "someone says teacher with initials a.m. thinks he can defeat prime fedor". but that's a strawman argument, because nobody has ever said that, and nobody ever would. no matter what attribute one got good at, one couldn't defeat him. but once you lose your shit, it's hard to use the logical portion of the brain.

99% of these demos are absurd as there isnt a threat

What takedown? No penetration step, no change of levels, giving double underhooks for free.

Anti drunk hug technique

everything wrote:it might depend in large part on what strawman or wrong or limited understanding someone has of "internal".

if taijiquan is "slow shaolin", I'd have to agree to "just do shuaijiao" not taijiquan.

if it's "fascia this or that", same conclusion.

if it's "structure this or that", same conclusion.

if there is some "energy", as in neijia is related to neigong, this gets much more difficult... but people here lose their shit or immediately have to knock down some strawman, like "someone says teacher with initials a.m. thinks he can defeat prime fedor". but that's a strawman argument, because nobody has ever said that, and nobody ever would. no matter what attribute one got good at, one couldn't defeat him. but once you lose your shit, it's hard to use the logical portion of the brain.

The "energy" is potential and kinetic in a classic newtonian sense, it's just generated using the body in a different way than is intuitive.

Stored like drawing a bow, moved like reeling silk, released like firing an arrow. Not shoved like pushing rope (ask your wife).

That's Taijiquan, I can't speak to anything else. Maybe bagua is different and has some other magic. SO far all I've found in Taijiquan is biology, and that's pretty damn effective, but I'mma keep lookin for magic.

The premise of the original video seems flaky.

well..
one persons 'internal energy' is another's biomechanics isn't it..

you CAN focus on biomechanics to make yourself harder to manipulate - obviously you can. then, yes technique comes into play.

it's a mistake to start talking about internal vs. external.
SUBTLE mechanics manifest externally. it's how you arrange, organise and position your body in relation to another and the forces that will interact.

everyone does it, but styles like tai chi tend to strongly focus on the body methods/techniques of maintaining structural integrity whilst creating and exploiting weaknesses of it in the opponent.

as I have repeated ad nauseam to you, the solo training is often 'internal' the result or effect can only manifest as 'external'.
understand that and these kind of internal vs. external threads go away - they become just noise and nonsense!

To counter a takedown, it depends on who controls who's arm/arms. It has nothing to do with "internal" or external.

Is there "internal" way to deal with arm drag and external way to deal with arm drag? I don't think so.

Nothing is "external" or "internal". Everything is both. The question is about what you believe is more important and how you organise different internal and external aspect, how you utilise one compared to the other.

There are certainly ways to deal with force that are more common, or favorable methods, in the so called internal arts compared to the so called external arts.

Arm drag as shown in the clips are purely external methods. What if you don't let your opponent grab and control your arm? To not let him do this should be the first concern in internal arts. If he grabs, then the way to deal with an external force is not to be concerned with the arms, but to use his grab to connect with his balance. If he cannot be stable, he has little use of his hand and arm strength. That is how you deal with external force in the internal arts, you try to not go directly against it, instead you manipulate something else, the root or core of his strength, so that he has no use for it.

Will you call this guy using "internal energy"?

So Wu Ch'eng-ch'ing wrote in "Treatise on Boxing" (ref Lost T'ai-ch'i Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty Douglas WIle)

The whole body from top to bottom responds whenever it is attacked. The body follows the energy. We are concerned with internal skill and not with the external form. This is the method of training in sparring (note:referring to roll-back,push,elbow-stroke). After it is perfected, one can draw the opponent's energy in, and when it lands on nothing, then unite and issue. In this way, your art will be realized.

origami_itto wrote:So Wu Ch'eng-ch'ing wrote in "Treatise on Boxing" (ref Lost T'ai-ch'i Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty Douglas WIle)

The whole body from top to bottom responds whenever it is attacked. The body follows the energy. We are concerned with internal skill and not with the external form. This is the method of training in sparring (note:referring to roll-back,push,elbow-stroke). After it is perfected, one can draw the opponent's energy in, and when it lands on nothing, then unite and issue. In this way, your art will be realized.

Since Wu Ch'eng-ch'ing said, "We are concerned not with the external form," are these internal?

marvin8 wrote:Cejudo controls the centerline (peng), draws (yin) Dillashaw's right cross. As Dillashaw throws right cross, Cejudo rolls (lu) and issues (fa) push:



Thompson lures (yin) Masvidal to jab. As Masvidal jabs, Thompson side steps and issues right cross:

I don't find that to be a useful classification

Internal? External? Don't care. Just trying to get better at Taijiquan.