Your kung fu is bullshit

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby wiesiek on Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:20 am

..." You've never seen anything like it, I guarantee. MT guys run 7 miles BEFORE class, train 2x a day for 1.5-3 hours each time, do 12 rounds with pads and 12 rounds of heavy bag, etc...".

hmm,
in my judo school morning run thru mountains was normal part of the daily trainings + 3x 1,5 h. trainings tailored for the style. This was my level before !st Dan around `70.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Quigga on Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:59 am

Making martial arts about fighting only is like saying you can only use a car on the racing track

Or that when claiming to be a good driver all around, the only way to prove that is to win many races instead of transporting people safely etc
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:42 pm

When my teacher taugh Taiji in the Chinese Culture University 中國文化大學 in Taiwan (I was his teaching assistant), he taught all the Taiji application in a great detail.

1. Cloud hand - Use right clockwise circle to deflect opponent's left punching arm. Use left counter-clockwise circle to block and wrap opponent's right punching arm. Right arm then turns into a head lock.

2. Needle at the bottom of the sea, shoulder extend to the arm - Use small wrist lock on opponent's right arm. When opponent resists, lift up his right arm, and enter with a shoulder throw.

3. Slant body down - left arm wrap opponent's right arm. Right arm go under his right leg, and firemen carry him over your shoulder.

4. ...
I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:07 pm

Quigga wrote:Making martial arts about fighting only is like saying you can only use a car on the racing track

Or that when claiming to be a good driver all around, the only way to prove that is to win many races instead of transporting people safely etc


An excellent driver in a subpar car will struggle to beat a subpar driver in an excellent car in a drag race, but not necessarily on a technical course if the subpar driver finishes the course at all.
The driver can make the most of a vehicles attributes or waste it's potential based on their skill in its use.

If your car can only get groceries at 50km/h but will fall apart when you tried to race it, can it really be called good all-around?
A cars performance is judged on acceleration, deceleration, top speed, handling at high speed, handling at low speed, passenger and cargo carrying capacity are factors for utility but not performance. Military vehicles are supposed to be a combination of durability and versatility, they are good for neither racing or getting groceries but they are considered "good all-round vehicles" for their purpose.

Being a skilled driver in a vehicle that can stand up to a variety of uses is optimal for unspecified tasks but will readily lose to more specialized vehicles in their element.

Cars drive, some better than others in different circumstances. Martial arts should fight, some better than others in different circumstances.
Being a skilled operator is a crucial component but knowing the limitations of your equipment and how to adapt around them is essential.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Quigga on Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:28 am

Defending oneself, killing someone, beating someone are different things

Good post otherwise
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:46 pm

Quigga wrote:Defending oneself, killing someone, beating someone are different things

Good post otherwise


Do any legitimate civilian martial arts claim to train people to kill? Hyperbole and promotional BS aside. Even the RBSD crowds with their frothing tactical awareness and itchy trigger fingers know how slippery the slope is from self-defense into assault, aggravated assault and manslaughter/2nd degree murder.

If I successfully defend myself with striking, they cannot stop me from continuing to do so after they lose consciousness. Similarly if I successfully defend myself with grappling, they can't make me let go of a choke once they go limp. That said - once they lose consciousness I am no longer defending myself, I am assaulting someone who can't defend themselves and "we" hopefully live in a nation of laws and value human life. Successfully ending a conflict (sport or otherwise) without either party dead or seriously injured is, or should be, the goal.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby origami_itto on Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:51 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:Do any legitimate civilian martial arts claim to train people to kill? .

What is legitimate? How can an art make a claim?
I've learned in my studies that we are very fragile and the world is filled with hard surfaces.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:24 pm

I worked with the great Jack Hassan who killed Archie Kemp in the boxing ring
I hung out with Phil Cuthbert who kicked a guy in the head and he died
I had a friend David White who died after a Kung Fu tournament
I played a game of Rugby Union against the navy where one of the navy guys died
So I’m pretty sure you can kill someone with martial arts
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:04 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I worked with the great Jack Hassan who killed Archie Kemp in the boxing ring
I hung out with Phil Cuthbert who kicked a guy in the head and he died
I had a friend David White who died after a Kung Fu tournament
I played a game of Rugby Union against the navy where one of the navy guys died
So I’m pretty sure you can kill someone with martial arts


I didn't say they couldn't - but in all of these examples you've given the deaths would be/are considered freakish and tragic accidents because the point was a sporting event, not a death. What are we arguing about again?
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:23 pm

origami_itto wrote:
Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:Do any legitimate civilian martial arts claim to train people to kill? .

What is legitimate? How can an art make a claim?
I've learned in my studies that we are very fragile and the world is filled with hard surfaces.


Defining a legitimate civilian martial art as something people can learn publicly without stigma. Escrima/Kali are arguably a very lethal arts to learn, lots of weapons and implied lethal application of force, but they don't come out saying "we train people to kill" despite training an art that has heaps of potential for lethal force in it, arguably to a higher degree than any empty-handed art. More thinking about branding language than method, and erring on the side of "most sane people don't actively choose lethal force when it's not necessary."

wayne hansen wrote:I worked with the great Jack Hassan who killed Archie Kemp in the boxing ring
I hung out with Phil Cuthbert who kicked a guy in the head and he died
I had a friend David White who died after a Kung Fu tournament
I played a game of Rugby Union against the navy where one of the navy guys died


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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby origami_itto on Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:10 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:Do any legitimate civilian martial arts claim to train people to kill? .

What is legitimate? How can an art make a claim?
I've learned in my studies that we are very fragile and the world is filled with hard surfaces.

Defining a legitimate civilian martial art as something people can learn publicly without stigma. Escrima/Kali are arguably a very lethal arts to learn, lots of weapons and implied lethal application of force, but they don't come out saying "we train people to kill" despite training an art that has heaps of potential for lethal force in it, arguably to a higher degree than any empty-handed art. More thinking about branding language than method, and erring on the side of "most sane people don't actively choose lethal force when it's not necessary."


I feel like the more answers you give the more questions I have.

Are there arts that have a stigma associated with learning them due to their lethality?

It seems like what you're talking about is the reputation of a certain "style" as it exists within your own understanding of widespread public perception.

When it comes to lethal art, I mean Taijiquan is deadly. Step forward, parry, and punch, from the first section, if executed with sufficient force to the xiphoid process can kill someone. Any number of movements that end in a brow mopping can be fatal due to neck or skull fractures. When you have full control of someone's body and the freedom of movement to do whatever you like, it is not hard to seriously injure someone. Not saying you can always have that, but I had no trouble achieving that with anybody looking to cause trouble doing security work fifteen years ago and I've only gotten better since then. Most of the trouble you run into in the wild isn't from people who know a lot about how to be very effective at it.

It's not the art that kills, it's the heart that kills. The art just provides the knowledge and tools.

If I was worried about what people thought of what I studied then I probably wouldn't have chosen Taijiquan. When I tell people that I study it they say "oh like the old people in the park" and I say "yes".

It doesn't matter what they think, just like it doesn't matter what opinion the Rum Soaked Fistians have of my practice and talent. What matters is what I carry in my hands, head, and heart, due to this discipline and cultivation.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:41 am

origami_itto wrote:I feel like the more answers you give the more questions I have.

Are there arts that have a stigma associated with learning them due to their lethality?

It seems like what you're talking about is the reputation of a certain "style" as it exists within your own understanding of widespread public perception.

When it comes to lethal art, I mean Taijiquan is deadly. Step forward, parry, and punch, from the first section, if executed with sufficient force to the xiphoid process can kill someone. Any number of movements that end in a brow mopping can be fatal due to neck or skull fractures. When you have full control of someone's body and the freedom of movement to do whatever you like, it is not hard to seriously injure someone. Not saying you can always have that, but I had no trouble achieving that with anybody looking to cause trouble doing security work fifteen years ago and I've only gotten better since then. Most of the trouble you run into in the wild isn't from people who know a lot about how to be very effective at it.

It's not the art that kills, it's the heart that kills. The art just provides the knowledge and tools.

If I was worried about what people thought of what I studied then I probably wouldn't have chosen Taijiquan. When I tell people that I study it they say "oh like the old people in the park" and I say "yes".

It doesn't matter what they think, just like it doesn't matter what opinion the Rum Soaked Fistians have of my practice and talent. What matters is what I carry in my hands, head, and heart, due to this discipline and cultivation.


Quite the reverse - I'm implying that to my knowledge no art styles itself as being "for killing" because that is viewed as an outlier result to personal conflicts for the last century or more in most civilized places. As you say, you had time in security and 15 years after that... but I assume you've never killed someone, won't, and won't hope to. However many people you've injured, you used your practice to end a conflict, not kill someone. We've both described situations where there is full control of a person - meaning the conflict is over - and to reach that point without that person dead, or where reaching that point with them dead is viewed as a tragic accident - doesn't that imply that the point was stopping conflict and not killing?

The topic of this thread is "your KF is bullshit" and someone started talking about cars and killing - Trying to reframe the thematic debate around what "Good" martial arts accomplish.

As much as the maxim of "Ikken Hissatsu" is thrown around in karate circles - decades of hundreds of thousands of practitioners not catching bodies with a reverse punch on the reg is worth reassessment.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby origami_itto on Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:20 pm

I guess what I'm getting at is that Twitter
Taijiquan has exposed how fragile human beings can be and how much force can be generated.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:32 pm

origami_itto wrote:I guess what I'm getting at is that Twitter
Taijiquan has exposed how fragile human beings can be and how much force can be generated.


For clarity - What is twitter taijiquan?
Without that context the general the assumption of human fragility and overestimation of their efficacy is a mistake many traditional martial artists make but never realize it is a mistake because we live in a civil society where these things aren't tested often.

I made the comment in the other thread about honest sparring methods - is the arbiter of efficacy beating someone smaller than you, the same size or bigger? Less fit, as fit or fitter? Ryan Hall famously said about his interest in martial arts being centered around being able to beat someone he couldn't already have beaten beforehand. If I can only win a fight because I'm a better athlete/bigger/stronger, what was the point of the martial art in the equation?
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:54 am

In America and Europe we seem to assume naturally that martial arts is about either

1) learning how to beat people up (usually using some kind of 'magic trick' or special technique, that gives weak people the power to beat the strong), or

2) a health practice.

And that's pretty much it.

In Asia it seems to be so much more.
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