Your kung fu is bullshit

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:35 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:I made the comment in the other thread about honest sparring methods - is the arbiter of efficacy beating someone smaller than you, the same size or bigger? Less fit, as fit or fitter? Ryan Hall famously said about his interest in martial arts being centered around being able to beat someone he couldn't already have beaten beforehand. If I can only win a fight because I'm a better athlete/bigger/stronger, what was the point of the martial art in the equation?

A 57 year-old, overweight security guard has the right to defend himself against a younger, more athletic, about the same height man threatening him. That's the point of martial arts.

TMZ Sports on 6/15/2022 wrote:"Officers have spoken to all parties involved and have reviewed relevant CCTV," cops said. "No further action will be taken in relation to the incident involving the security guard and male customer."

Police initially began investigating Francis after he was seen on video throwing a right hook at a man's jaw after the guy had appeared to get into a confrontation with security guards at BOXPARK Wembley.

The man was reportedly causing a scene at the venue, and after he was booted by the guards, he became combative.
The Sun on 6/15/22 wrote:Boxpark CEO Roger Wade described Francis as 'one of the nicest men ever.'

In a post on LinkedIn, he wrote:

“Julius Francis is ex UK heavyweight boxing champion, he is one of the nicest people I have ever met and helps train young underprivileged kids boxing in his spare time.

My understanding is that Julius and our security team spent 15 minutes stopping this man and his friends from abusing, spitting and hitting our customers and staff. They carefully escorted him from the premises under constant provocation and violence. Finally the person approached Julius in a confrontational manner and he defended himself."
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:11 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:I made the comment in the other thread about honest sparring methods -
is the arbiter of efficacy beating someone smaller than you, the same size or bigger? Less fit, as fit or fitter?

Ryan Hall famously said about his interest in martial arts being centered around being able to beat someone he couldn't already have beaten beforehand.

If I can only win a fight because I'm a better athlete/bigger/stronger, what was the point of the martial art in the equation?


One mans thoughts

"depending on what you see in it.

Bruce Lee"




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8kVqCX6Qf4


Agree with many of the ideas expressed, although
the points on taiji practice regulated to "old peoples" practice is kind of misleading
if one is looking gain the functionality of it... :)

Interesting enough his view point also follows

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,
http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition

練拳到了高級階段,棚、捋、擠、按皆非似,無形無象,全身透空。
At the highest level of martial arts, there is no longer Peng, Tsai, Ji, An. Shapeless and Formless, the whole body is as if empty and porous.

盤架子,不能用意去追(求什麼)。
Therefore, when practicing, do not look to “get something.”
(十六)太極拳功夫有兩個部分 ­­ 知己之功和知彼之功
(Sixteen) There are two parts in Tai Chi Chuan Gong Fu: Understanding Yourself and Understanding the Others.

Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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where else do you expect to find it?

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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby BruceP on Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:18 am

TJQ has been a method of far greater accomplishment for me as a civil art than as a 'martial art'. From using hand tools and other implements, to archery, bowling, knitting and overall physical culture, to personal interactions with other people and wild animals, its principles and methods are a guide to appropriate action and non-action.

Before I started studying tjq, aside from 20 years of hard, physical labour, I'd already been involved in different types of 'combat athletics' since I was single digits old - boxing, wrestling, hockey, lacrosse, rugby - so I already knew how to 'fight' and had zero fear of getting beat up. The only reason I took tjq's fighting method so seriously was because it appeared to be a perfect synthesis of principles, methods and ideas I could share as a common body of study with others who were/are interested in developing and evolving their Personal Combat.

It was obvious to me that I should know how to structure lessons so as to provide others immediate access to tjq's practical fighting method on their first day. In order to do that, it was important to lead the way by first testing my own learning via competing in full contact sporting formats that allowed my opponent to do his worst. To my thinking, any one who presumes to 'teach' tai chi as a 'martial art' should have done similar in establishing at least a bare minimum of credibility. Everything else is just a LARP.

Since then, I've learned that TJQ is perfect without all the martial bullshit (literally) weighing it down.
Last edited by BruceP on Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:46 pm

I agree with a lot of what you are saying
I differ in the need for sport competition
My own teacher never competed in any sport other than a bit of fencing
However he did spar with his students of who many had participated
Some at world championship level
He did have extensive street confrontations
Too many sport participants find themselves lacking when the rubber hits the road
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:50 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Too many sport participants find themselves lacking when the rubber hits the road

This is why in CMA, there is a category of techniques that's called "black hand".

- In sport, you use leg spring to take your oponent down to win that round.
- In combat, you use leg spring to pull down your opponent's head to meet your knee strike.

- In sport, you use outer leg twist to take your oponent down to win that round.
- In combat, you use outer leg twist to hurt your opponent's knee joint.

- In sport, you throw your opponent.
- In combat. you hurt your opponent.

Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:28 pm

marvin8 wrote:A 57 year-old, overweight security guard has the right to defend himself against a younger, more athletic, about the same height man threatening him. That's the point of martial arts.


"Has the right to defend himself" - no one said he didn't, stop sounding like an NRA-member. His being bigger, stronger and having more training is why he was able to drop the guy. Being overweight is only an issue if fatigue is a factor and until then it's an advantage so stop pretending it's a reason to be impressed. The phrase "Power is the last thing to go" is boxing dogma, especially for heavyweights, so him being 57 isn't a factor for 1-punch power either.

wayne hansen wrote:I agree with a lot of what you are saying
I differ in the need for sport competition...Too many sport participants find themselves lacking when the rubber hits the road


I wouldn't say I think there's a need for active competition, people have day jobs and families to worry about - but I am saying that this type of full(or near full) contact sparring is the best way to measure a practitioners ability to handle "real combat"-adjacent stress regularly, a student with an aversion to that kind of optional training will not, in my experience, be able to control their exertion or think strategically under pressure in a situation that isn't optional.

I've chosen to skip your notes about your instructor, I don't know him or any reference for these anecdotes or see benefit in doing so. He's your instructor, you respect him, that's tradition. I've had instructors with compelling training history and street-altercation stories as well and similarly take nothing away from their dedication and ability as martial artists and the lessons I learned from them but I was able to put them under pressure and strategy they didn't have good answers for and I respect them more for being willing to experience that from a student.

I'm reminded of a maxim I got from a retired boxer about being hesitant to spar certain people - "The worst he's gonna do is hit ya, kid."
It's not for everyone and someone taking their martial practice as a lifestyle choice for wellness and mobility there is no need for debate but if there are claims of "real fight" efficacy without willingness to engage with experiments at that intensity in a controlled environment, my BS meter hits the red line immediately.

JW's points about the small adjustments to move from "sport" to "self-defense" ring true for me also (though I wish I understood the dialogue in the video), the difficulty in making the transition between the two as some are claiming has not been my experience. Individual mileage may vary but whether you're willing to try and see is the question, most don't.
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Re: Your kung fu is bullshit

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:36 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:I wish I understood the dialogue in the video ...

The instructor taught his student how to integrate joint locking into Chinese wrestling. Most joint locking is not allowed to be used in Chinese wrestling as a sport.

Here is an example.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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