Weird metal weapons - a research project

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Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Fri May 20, 2022 12:47 pm

Hi Guys,
I'm a longtime martial arts enthusiast and an almost as longtime blacksmith, I've made it my goal to hand-forge some reproductions of more obscure vintage weapons that are hard to get "real" replicas of. Figured you would be a solid group to tap into as I am limited by both community access (not a lot of CMA in my region) and monolingualism. My current projects are a set of Deerhorn knives and an 1800's era chainwhip. Any and all info is welcome, I'm not a seller so don't expect anything to be reproduced in volume, it's more a history project to experience the process a local blacksmith went through making a custom weapon for a client back in the old days.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby origami_itto on Fri May 20, 2022 1:20 pm

Well I'm sure you can appreciate the challenge in the hook swords
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_sword

Otherwise there's the guandao and dadao.

Seriously just Google Chinese polearms
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Fri May 20, 2022 1:38 pm

origami_itto wrote:Well I'm sure you can appreciate the challenge in the hook swords
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_sword

Otherwise there's the guandao and dadao.

Seriously just Google Chinese polearms


Well aware of the different shapes - its more a question of what were they like when they were made for use, not mass-produced for wushu demos and wallhanging. The shape of a hook sword is easy to find, the weight, balance point, thickness, bevel width, material, etc. The modern "chain whip" you can buy weighs 150-200grams, traditionally they could weigh almost 10x that. The front spike alone weighting as much as the whole modern demo piece.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Doc Stier on Fri May 20, 2022 2:02 pm

Very true. With the exception of a few spring steel straight swords, all of my classical Chinese weapons are made of heavy combat steel. They are definitely NOT the super flexible, lightweight modern wushu competition weapons or ornamental wall display weapons.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Fri May 20, 2022 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby windwalker on Fri May 20, 2022 2:30 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:Hi Guys,
I'm a longtime martial arts enthusiast and an almost as longtime blacksmith, I've made it my goal to hand-forge some reproductions of more obscure vintage weapons that are hard to get "real" replicas of. Figured you would be a solid group to tap into as I am limited by both community access (not a lot of CMA in my region) and monolingualism. My current projects are a set of Deerhorn knives and an 1800's era chainwhip. Any and all info is welcome, I'm not a seller so don't expect anything to be reproduced in volume, it's more a history project to experience the process a local blacksmith went through making a custom weapon for a client back in the old days.


Arthur, a good friend of mine....pm me....

maybe I can hook you up with him..if you have a web site or something that would be good..


Image
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sat May 21, 2022 8:53 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:Hi Guys,
I'm a longtime martial arts enthusiast and an almost as longtime blacksmith, I've made it my goal to hand-forge some reproductions of more obscure vintage weapons that are hard to get "real" replicas of. Figured you would be a solid group to tap into as I am limited by both community access (not a lot of CMA in my region) and monolingualism. My current projects are a set of Deerhorn knives and an 1800's era chainwhip. Any and all info is welcome, I'm not a seller so don't expect anything to be reproduced in volume, it's more a history project to experience the process a local blacksmith went through making a custom weapon for a client back in the old days.


Awesome! I'm just finishing up my blacksmith apprenticeship and I have the same interest. I'm also having a hard time getting measurements/specs for what heavy traditional weapons were supposed to be. Sadly many of the weapons I trained with in Taiwan were of the "temple demonstration" type meaning they were hollow. Not exactly what i was hoping for.

Deerhorn knives should be easier to get specs on but the chainwhip will be more difficult. My first bagua teacher specialized in real chainwhip and brought a heavy one from Beijing. The metal was very heavy and the links were very precise. I've never seen another one like that.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby greytowhite on Sat May 21, 2022 3:33 pm

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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby D_Glenn on Sat May 21, 2022 9:37 pm

I think I can find the specs for a large two-handed Bagua straight sword.

And the large oversized Bagua saber could be fun to try. The guy who we found to make them in China died and didn’t pass on the know-how to anyone. So that could be an experiment to replicate it.

There would be a market for both of those too.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Kelley Graham on Sat May 21, 2022 10:58 pm

Pls share specifications. I have shop and love heavy weapons.
Last edited by Kelley Graham on Sat May 21, 2022 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby D_Glenn on Sun May 22, 2022 1:22 am

Here’s the sword. I will measure the saber tomorrow
Image

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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Sun May 22, 2022 1:47 am

windwalker wrote:
Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:Hi Guys,
I'm a longtime martial arts enthusiast and an almost as longtime blacksmith, I've made it my goal to hand-forge some reproductions of more obscure vintage weapons that are hard to get "real" replicas of. Figured you would be a solid group to tap into as I am limited by both community access (not a lot of CMA in my region) and monolingualism. My current projects are a set of Deerhorn knives and an 1800's era chainwhip. Any and all info is welcome, I'm not a seller so don't expect anything to be reproduced in volume, it's more a history project to experience the process a local blacksmith went through making a custom weapon for a client back in the old days.


Arthur, a good friend of mine....pm me....

maybe I can hook you up with him..if you have a web site or something that would be good..



This is exactly kind the connection I'm hoping to make. Will PM you.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Sun May 22, 2022 1:49 am

D_Glenn wrote:Here’s the sword. I will measure the saber tomorrow
Image

.


Very cool, is it a diamond cross-section from the bevel forward or is it a flat hexagon?
Something that long would be a nightmare to heat treat but not impossible.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Sun May 22, 2022 1:54 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:
Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:Hi Guys,
I'm a longtime martial arts enthusiast and an almost as longtime blacksmith, I've made it my goal to hand-forge some reproductions of more obscure vintage weapons that are hard to get "real" replicas of. Figured you would be a solid group to tap into as I am limited by both community access (not a lot of CMA in my region) and monolingualism. My current projects are a set of Deerhorn knives and an 1800's era chainwhip. Any and all info is welcome, I'm not a seller so don't expect anything to be reproduced in volume, it's more a history project to experience the process a local blacksmith went through making a custom weapon for a client back in the old days.


Awesome! I'm just finishing up my blacksmith apprenticeship and I have the same interest. I'm also having a hard time getting measurements/specs for what heavy traditional weapons were supposed to be. Sadly many of the weapons I trained with in Taiwan were of the "temple demonstration" type meaning they were hollow. Not exactly what i was hoping for.

Deerhorn knives should be easier to get specs on but the chainwhip will be more difficult. My first bagua teacher specialized in real chainwhip and brought a heavy one from Beijing. The metal was very heavy and the links were very precise. I've never seen another one like that.


Oh awesome, where are you located? Deerhorn knives are a conundrum of their own because there are so many different shapes and limited literature on how and why different shapes were used (or even conjecture on how/if they were used IRL). I've got specs for a really nicely made chain whip, it asks for a lot of precision forge welding to recreate making the eyes and thin chainlinks but doable, I have the pieces shaped but waiting on a forge with a more controlled atmosphere to do the welding, once I have that I'll be able to progress fairly quickly.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sun May 22, 2022 7:53 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Here’s the sword. I will measure the saber tomorrow


Very cool, is it a diamond cross-section from the bevel forward or is it a flat hexagon?
Something that long would be a nightmare to heat treat but not impossible.

Thanks to D. Glenn for providing that. Yeah, I don't think even my smiths shop is set up to heat treat that.

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote: I've got specs for a really nicely made chain whip, it asks for a lot of precision forge welding to recreate making the eyes and thin chainlinks but doable, I have the pieces shaped but waiting on a forge with a more controlled atmosphere to do the welding, once I have that I'll be able to progress fairly quickly.

Could you use a coal/coke forge to do it?
I've only forge-welded successfully a few times as I'm still a beginner (mostly flux spoons) but forgewelding all those small links looks like a real headache. And don't quote me on this, but the chain whip I saw might have been made out of brass instead of steel which is something I've never even thought of working with. The individual sections and the dart were surprisingly thick and there were 9 of them, of course.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby D_Glenn on Sun May 22, 2022 8:53 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:Very cool, is it a diamond cross-section from the bevel forward or is it a flat hexagon?

Idk. Here’s a closeup of some replicas made in the UK
Image

But here’s a video of the original, or more authentic design rather, that has one brief closeup at 00:35

https://youtu.be/SR__Y4JYN8s

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Sun May 22, 2022 11:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
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