Weird metal weapons - a research project

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby D_Glenn on Sun May 22, 2022 9:15 am

The all circular weapon seen in this picture is called the Sun & Moon Wheels (Ziwu Lun). The large outer ring is a double-edged sword, only made into a ring and then connected end to end where the handle is. So the inside of this big circle (the sun) is razor sharp and the crescent moon inside that (protecting your hand) is also sharp. If the opponent has a long weapon like a spear or sword and is thrusting it towards you then the weapon’s primary or main usage of its design is to simply (or not so simply) get one of your rings looped around the opponent's weapon and then charge forward, sliding that ring up to his arm, then try to get the other ring looped over the top of his head. Then start moving both rings like if they were a hula-hoop around his neck and arm. Severing or severely damage the arm, and attempting to or actually decapitating the opponent. Which is the significance of the name: Wheel, in that you’re continuing your opponent’s journey on the Buddhist “Wheel of Life” 有輪 (yǒulún).

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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Mon May 23, 2022 3:32 pm

D_Glenn wrote:The all circular weapon seen in this picture is called the Sun & Moon Wheels (Ziwu Lun). The large outer ring is a double-edged sword, only made into a ring and then connected end to end where the handle is. So the inside of this big circle (the sun) is razor sharp and the crescent moon inside that (protecting your hand) is also sharp. If the opponent has a long weapon like a spear or sword and is thrusting it towards you then the weapon’s primary or main usage of its design is to simply (or not so simply) get one of your rings looped around the opponent's weapon and then charge forward, sliding that ring up to his arm, then try to get the other ring looped over the top of his head. Then start moving both rings like if they were a hula-hoop around his neck and arm. Severing or severely damage the arm, and attempting to or actually decapitating the opponent. Which is the significance of the name: Wheel, in that you’re continuing your opponent’s journey on the Buddhist “Wheel of Life” 有輪 (yǒulún).

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I can see making the wheels being pretty straightforward tbh. It's impossible to make from a single piece so it's a beveled bar, two struts and the crescent made separately then lapwelded to each other. sizing is the only issue - weird to see a weapon rendered almost useless by wearing a big hat.
If someone wanted one of these I would be tempted to try it by fire welding but if I ran into difficulty a stick weld job would make a very functional piece with a fraction of the hassle.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby D_Glenn on Mon May 23, 2022 4:59 pm

Haha I hadn’t thought about the hat.

I believe these are the characters: 午子轮 so technically it’s Midnight and Noon Wheels (or Moon and Sun).

I think it might be a really old weapon. As in invented. The one in the picture, 1930s, might be a replica. It seems like the moon is standing off pretty far. My thoughts were to use rivets(?) to join the two ends in the handle and you could also then rivet the moon with the same holes instead of welding. But I’m no blacksmith. I just watch it on tv and YouTube.

Maybe you can help me find some pictures or documents of this: I’ve only seen it one time and can’t find anything about it since. But it’s total hand planishing to make armor out of sheet metal. Where the apprentice would be holding the sheet and the blacksmith/ armourer has two hammers. A big one and a small one. He swings one from below the sheet and one from above but the two faces of the hammer have to meet right at the sheet metal. If one hits the metal first then the metal gets bent and is no good. And if the apprentice isn’t holding it steady then he could also ruin it.

Or, come to think of it, the roles could be reversed, because the more skilled part would be knowing where to move the metal around to create perfect curves.
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Last edited by D_Glenn on Mon May 23, 2022 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weird metal weapons - a research project

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Mon May 23, 2022 10:20 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Haha I hadn’t thought about the hat.

I believe these are the characters: 午子轮 so technically it’s Midnight and Noon Wheels (or Moon and Sun).

I think it might be a really old weapon. As in invented. The one in the picture, 1930s, might be a replica. It seems like the moon is standing off pretty far. My thoughts were to use rivets(?) to join the two ends in the handle and you could also then rivet the moon with the same holes instead of welding. But I’m no blacksmith. I just watch it on tv and YouTube.

Maybe you can help me find some pictures or documents of this: I’ve only seen it one time and can’t find anything about it since. But it’s total hand planishing to make armor out of sheet metal. Where the apprentice would be holding the sheet and the blacksmith/ armourer has two hammers. A big one and a small one. He swings one from below the sheet and one from above but the two faces of the hammer have to meet right at the sheet metal. If one hits the metal first then the metal gets bent and is no good. And if the apprentice isn’t holding it steady then he could also ruin it.

Or, come to think of it, the roles could be reversed, because the more skilled part would be knowing where to move the metal around to create perfect curves.
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When assembling a weapon rivets are "fine" but because they are made of iron or copper and subject to torque/impact under use they would be prone to coming loose over time, a lap weld would be a fusing of the parts into one continuous piece and much harder to break apart if done well (or easier to break apart if you do a shoddy job). Planishing is a skill in most branches of blacksmithing, armourers use it the most so they get all the credit, I am not familiar with the method you are talking about, most use what is called a raising stake which gives them a small smooth striking surface to hit the piece on when working with curved pieces, it takes the place of the anvil but even mechanized planishers are single side impact. I'm not saying that didn't exist, but if it did it wasn't common or readily passed down in favor of more standard methods of raising/planishing sheet.
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