soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby everything on Tue May 24, 2022 10:55 am

not sure about xingyi or bagua, but one approach people could take to taijiquan (since it's both soft and "internal") is to try to learn 100 lbs vs. 1000 lbs, then 10 lbs, then 1 lb and so on. There isn't any need to worry too much about extremes of mechanical leverage or "energy". We can just assume there is always some mechanical thing and always some "energy" of some sort, perhaps in different %.

If one never gets to "internal" via softer and softer "mechanical" approach to "4 oz", it doesn't really matter (assuming your main interest is MA and not IMA). If you have the "softest" judo or bjj for "minimum effort, maximum effect" with a soft art technique, you're probably doing fine to extremely well in your art. If you happen to still want to have "internal", you're probably working your way "down" in "force" to be sure you don't "muscle" something, so your "muscle" is "getting out of the way" in case you are trying to work a "different quality" or have your inner stuff merged with your outer soft MA. However, no idea what happens if your "internal" art is not a "soft art". For example xingyiquan and yiquan don't seem to talk about being "cotton boxing" or something like that. For me, personally, this isn't "the way" b/c it's too difficult to work on neigong let alone neijia. For others, this seems like a theoretical answer to the "it must be mechanical or it must be energy" dichotomy/problem if you have this kind of problem.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby windwalker on Tue May 24, 2022 11:05 am

everything wrote:not sure about xingyi or bagua, but one approach people could take to taijiquan (since it's both soft and "internal") is to try to learn 100 lbs vs. 1000 lbs, then 10 lbs, then 1 lb and so on. There isn't any need to worry too much about extremes of mechanical leverage or "energy". We can just assume there is always some mechanical thing and always some "energy" of some sort, perhaps in different %.

If one never gets to "internal" via softer and softer "mechanical" approach to "4 oz", it doesn't really matter (assuming your main interest is MA and not IMA). If you have the "softest" judo or bjj for "minimum effort, maximum effect" with a soft art technique, you're probably doing fine to extremely well in your art. If you happen to still want to have "internal", you're probably working your way "down" in "force" to be sure you don't "muscle" something, so your "muscle" is "getting out of the way" in case you are trying to work a "different quality" or have your inner stuff merged with your outer soft MA. However, no idea what happens if your "internal" art is not a "soft art".

For example xingyiquan and yiquan don't seem to talk about being "cotton boxing" or something like that.

For me, personally, this isn't "the way" b/c it's too difficult to work on neigong let alone neijia.

For others, this seems like a theoretical answer to the "it must be mechanical or it must be energy" dichotomy/problem if you have this kind of problem.


I like this teachers work and ideas expressed....

A 3rd way of looking at it, intended results, by first examineing whats different
seeing if it aligns with the theory by which it's said to be different...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un979j09g5E&t=628s

He outlines 3 different ways, with the 3rd method being defined as different from the other 2...






some things to consider,,,

Why soft,,,why "fan song" ect...

One idea might be that what one is working with has to be able to travel through ones own body...not locked in by it...

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,
http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition

用意不用力,用意則通;用力則意氣受阻,不通。
Use Yi and not force. Use Yi and your body can act as a 通 conduit; use force and you will cause the blockage to your Yi and Qi.


意、氣運行要舒緩自如,通暢順達。不能憋,要找出路舒散。
Let your Yi and Qi move freely, with no restriction or stoppage. Let it flow out with ease.


common to most of the old masters writings on taiji
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 24, 2022 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby origami_itto on Tue May 24, 2022 12:11 pm

So to settle the question once and for all.

There is no internal over here and external over there.

There is the internal skill and external form.

There is what can be seen and what can not be seen.

Practical training involves both to a greater or lesser degree and some approaches to cultivation focus on one more than the other.

Soft and hard are other matters entirely.

I think the Taijiquan approach is best summed up in the story of the boxer who excelled at headbutts. I can't remember which member of the Yang family it was that fought him, but they threw a towel over his head and yanked it to the ground.

It's a soft art.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby marvin8 on Tue May 24, 2022 5:54 pm

everything wrote:soft -> very soft -> "internal"

not sure about xingyi or bagua, but one approach people could take to taijiquan (since it's both soft and "internal") is to try to learn 100 lbs vs. 1000 lbs, then 10 lbs, then 1 lb and so on.

No touch -> control is softer than touch -> control. ;)

marvin8 wrote:Thompson lures (yin) Masvidal to jab. As Masvidal jabs, Thompson side steps and issues right cross:

Image

Per Guo Shilei, the following guy will get into a "slugfest" and "end up locking horns with the opponent." He appears to lack the understanding of double weighting (control) opponent without touch before the point of contact. As he steps to push, an opponent can yield and counter (lu/ji):

Image

windwalker wrote:I like this teachers work and ideas expressed....

A 3rd way of looking at it, intended results, by first examineing whats different
seeing if it aligns with the theory by which it's said to be different...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un979j09g5E&t=628s

He outlines 3 different ways, with the 3rd method being defined as different from the other 2...

Again, he overgeneralizes both Waijiaquan and Neijiaquan.

marvin8 wrote:Not accurate/a difference in "western practices:"

• MMA trains hands, trapping, framing, clinching, trips, throws, submissions
• Uses crotch, waist, kua, shoulder, knees, elbows, whole body (e.g., Mike Tyson), etc.
• Trains inside of the body (e.g., movements are internalized, whole body)
• Double weights opponent thru no touch boxing (see Guo Shilei), not only unbalancing.
• Range includes non-contact to finish (e.g., push, strike, throw, submission)
• Hit and don’t get hit.
• Strike can turn into head control, etc....

Obviously. Boxing has various punches and ways to generate power (e.g., triangle, short punches). He compares apples to oranges, a rear hand punch to a lead hand push (illegal in boxing).

MMA lead hand push:

Image

Boxing hook, uppercut and short punches can use "triangle:"

Image

Brush knee rear hand strike similar to "western fighting."

marvin8 wrote:Adam Mizner:

Image

Feng Zhiqiang:

Image

Chen Jian Qiang:

Image
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby windwalker on Tue May 24, 2022 6:14 pm

marvin8 wrote :

Again, he overgeneralizes both Waijiaquan and Neijiaquan


Same question are you an analyst or practitioner. :)

it's not listed in your profile....

Thought with most "practitioners" they would understand the type of demos the teacher is presenting
and the why....

Someone who's an "analyst" might tend to place more emphasis on their analysis than what is actually presented...

The OP, presents an idea of what internal and external are, that is not consistent
within the culture the distinctions are made from.

The teachers clip might help him and others to clarify the differences...
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 24, 2022 9:26 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby johnwang on Tue May 24, 2022 6:32 pm

Image

Allow me to borrow someone's post in another forum that I agree with him 100%.

"Pushing your opponent away is not wise if he is serious about attacking you. You just give him a second chance!"

After you have taken your opponent down, if you take off, your opponent may not be able to chase you if you run fast enough.

Last edited by johnwang on Tue May 24, 2022 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby windwalker on Tue May 24, 2022 6:45 pm

johnwang wrote:Image

Allow me to borrow someone's post in another forum that I agree with him 100%.

"Pushing your opponent away is not wise if he is serious about attacking you. You just give him a second chance!"

After you have taken your opponent down, if you take off, your opponent may not be able to chase you if you run fast enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwobwMS1sl0


a little confused the clip mentioned s a training clip,,,,showing long power used to train certain concepts

with the intended usage done with whats called. 冰津 "short power" doesn't allow the movement shown..

It's done to drop or injure someone, normally not used on a training partner.

You feel the training method shown is the way it would actually be used ?
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 24, 2022 6:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby johnwang on Tue May 24, 2022 6:54 pm

windwalker wrote:You feel the training method shown is the way it would actually be used ?

Since this thread is discussing soft -> very soft, I believe 3 points contact force can be softer than 1 point contact force.

If you use 90 lb force to push on 1 point, I can use

- 30 lb force on my left hand pulling.
- 30 lb force on my right hand pushing.
- 30 lb force on my shin bite.

to achieve the same result.

If you push away a steel ball at the center with 100 lb force, I can use two 50 lb opposite direction force to spin that ball.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue May 24, 2022 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby everything on Tue May 24, 2022 6:57 pm

There is only “internal” as Sun describes. Randos on the internet - why would anyone think he or she can refute Sun? Makes zero sense.

BUT if we wanted to have layers of
- power chain
- leverage
- something Sun says but ppl don’t understand
- or just never understand Sun

We “win” if MA is our goal etc etc
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby Bhassler on Tue May 24, 2022 7:53 pm

everything wrote:There is only “internal” as Sun describes. Randos on the internet - why would anyone think he or she can refute Sun? Makes zero sense.

BUT if we wanted to have layers of
- power chain
- leverage
- something Sun says but ppl don’t understand
- or just never understand Sun

We “win” if MA is our goal etc etc


1. Sun was not and is not a definitive source on "internal." He was a guy who was pretty good who happened to write some books, but from what I've read and heard was never viewed as especially better than a lot of other guys.
2. Even accepting that Sun was great, why not look at people who learned directly from the family? In the U.S., probably the most famous of those is Tim Cartmell, whose writings and videos are both widely available and imminently practical.

If you would like to make the case that you, who yourself is one of the aforementioned randos on the internet, have a better understanding of what Sun was getting at than someone who is in the direct family lineage, I'm sure we'd all love to hear your reasoning.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby cloudz on Wed May 25, 2022 6:40 am

soft and hard are a bit different. put it this way, something I heard which makes sense to me. it's been around a while in various guises so not a new idea by any means.

'internal' aims for soft embodies hard, external aims for hard embodies soft.

in the end all martial arts and individuals arrive at their own balances of internal/external training and soft/ hard elements of both training and end product. the two dual categories occupy different spaces i think, perhaps overlapping somewhat like those Venn diagrams.

should be added this is confined to the TCMA systems.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 25, 2022 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby everything on Wed May 25, 2022 3:43 pm

"Sun" is more or less short hand for "any writings we can find from that generation" or "what Sun's teachers told him that he wrote down"...

in any case, I don't want to go against my own admonition against believing we somehow know more than those masters, BUT SUPPOSE IF we wanted to make up our own definitions of "internal", this is one way we could do it with sort of "hedged bets". We could just say "make my soft art approach 4 oz and call it a day". (But that doesn't work for XYQ, does it?).

If we never get to what he talks about, it doesn't really matter. We reach our own re-definition. This isn't particularly what I'd want to do as an "ideal target" .... but limited time, limited talent, etc., etc. ... It's also de facto the only thing we can do: we can only reach whatever we individually can reach. We could argue theoretically whether we'd prefer to be like Messi or Ronaldo, Yang Luchan or Guo Yunsheng, but it doesn't matter since we cannot get to that level. (Out of those four choices, I'd really rather be Messi)
Last edited by everything on Wed May 25, 2022 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby Bao on Thu May 26, 2022 1:27 am

everything wrote:... in any case, I don't want to go against my own admonition against believing we somehow know more than those masters, BUT SUPPOSE IF we wanted to make up our own definitions of "internal", ...


First you need to understand what Sun actually said. And that was in fact that he didn't believe that any martial art could be either internal or external.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby everything on Thu May 26, 2022 5:58 am

Bao wrote:
everything wrote:... in any case, I don't want to go against my own admonition against believing we somehow know more than those masters, BUT SUPPOSE IF we wanted to make up our own definitions of "internal", ...


First you need to understand what Sun actually said. And that was in fact that he didn't believe that any martial art could be either internal or external.


true. that part is "too advanced" for me, unfortunately, so I'd break it down like this at the moment:
- in the beginning when you don't know anything, MA is neither internal or external
- when you start to know a little, this division makes a little bit of sense. Sun also says he went through that (see the part where he goes to ask his teacher Song about this).
- when you're in that phase, doing those "internal" things (the things for which "Sun" is just my shorthand for "stuff those various masters did") is compelling (this is too big a subject, but should be the main subject on the main forum imho) as there is something a bit "different".
- later, there isn't any such division again. I don't understand this part at all as I can't get through the "internal" portion.

so the parts I'm trying to learn / talk about could be called "beginner in internal section" part.
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Re: soft -> very soft -> "internal"

Postby origami_itto on Thu May 26, 2022 6:16 am

everything wrote:
Bao wrote:
everything wrote:... in any case, I don't want to go against my own admonition against believing we somehow know more than those masters, BUT SUPPOSE IF we wanted to make up our own definitions of "internal", ...


First you need to understand what Sun actually said. And that was in fact that he didn't believe that any martial art could be either internal or external.


true. that part is "too advanced" for me, unfortunately, so I'd break it down like this at the moment:
- in the beginning when you don't know anything, MA is neither internal or external
- when you start to know a little, this division makes a little bit of sense. Sun also says he went through that (see the part where he goes to ask his teacher Song about this).
- when you're in that phase, doing those "internal" things (the things for which "Sun" is just my shorthand for "stuff those various masters did") is compelling (this is too big a subject, but should be the main subject on the main forum imho) as there is something a bit "different".
- later, there isn't any such division again. I don't understand this part at all as I can't get through the "internal" portion.

so the parts I'm trying to learn / talk about could be called "beginner in internal section" part.


I'd like to get a better understanding of what you're referring to. Which book(s) are you getting this from?
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