Xinyi - Xingyi: Relationship?

[Andy_S]

Gents:

What is the historical/developmental relationship between Xinyi and Xingyi (if any)?

I am curious as I practice neither system, but if the latter developed from the former:
- What are the strong points of each?
- Is Xingyi 'watered down' Xinyi
- Or is Xinyi 'stuck-in-the-past' Xingyi?

Given the amount of debate in MA circles (esp CMA circles) on 'traditionalism' and 'lineage,' perhaps his conversation could shed light on what dynamics compell practitioners to add and/or subtract moves from living systems, thereby creating new styles.

Or not.

[GrahamB]

I don't tend to get too hung up on the stylistic differences. Others get very hung up on it and are ready to kill each other over it.

The fact is, there's a provable, unbroken line of teacher/student relationships from Ji Long Feng (first verifiable historical 'Xin Yi Liu He' practitioner) through to every 'Xingyi' guy on this discussion board today.

In a nutshell: 'XingYi' has the 5 element forms plus 12 animals. 'Xinyi' has 10 animals. Plus there are a lot of stylistic differences between the different branches of the family tree.

[mixjourneyman]

To me xinyi has a very different look than xingyi.
To be honest it looks kind of strange, as if when the style was compiled they wanted to create something with purposefully different tactics than your average punch kick style.
Xingyi on the other hand has a way more punchy kicky feel to it, which just basically means to me that they wanted to make it easier to understand and apply.
I've never practiced xinyi, but I think its a cool style nonetheless.

[Haoran]

hmm.. this is interesting as I knew little before about this.


So, xinyi = xinyi liuhe (Shanghai area art)??

Is this right?

Xingyi = Xingyi (sorry, I don't know the history of this line).

[GrahamB]

Xin Yi Liu Han became popular with the Muslim ethnic Chinese community, in Hennan I believe.

[somatai]

they have very different shen fa, but some similar fundamentals......xinyi is just way cooler(ha ha) and seems to focus more upon developing the seven stars inhmo....to me xinyi is very similar to the yin style bagua i studied, differences for sure, but they both train and develop in a similar fashion and it is all about the body develpment and unusual angles and tactics.

[GrahamB]

Xin Yi is cooler because it's rarer

[Felipe Bidó]

In broad terms:

There was one origin, Xinyi, coming from Ji Lonfeng.

Xinyi Liuhe is Xinyi learned by Ma Xueli, who was a Moslem. Ma learned from Ji Lonfeng

Dai Xinyi was the Xinyi taught to the Dai Family. The Dai clan already had a fighting style, so they incorporated Xinyi to it. They were the first to introduce the Five Fists.

Xingyiquan was created by Li Luoneng, based on what he learned from the Dai family. He introduced the Lizard and Tai Bird forms, and most of the linking forms.

As said, this is just a broad view. There are many details and observations and 'maybes' (some people say that no one knew what Ma Xueli's real teacher was; others say that Li Liuoneng and the Dai Family had a common teacher and Li didn't learn everything from the Dai's, etc). But that's too complicated for a single thread. And not that important

To me, Xinyiliuhe and Dai Xinyi look similar in external form (the sequences, the looks), but Xinyiliuhe and Xingyi look similar in mechanics. Have in mind, also, that there are many variations (for example, Li Tailiang's Xingyi has Che Xingyiquan AND Dai Xinyi).

I think that variations in Xingyi (what you call "add and/or subtract moves from living systems") depend on the point of view of the teachers. Xingyi and Xinyi are styles that can have many variations, as long as the mechanics and the internal aspects follow the rules and principles that would still classify them as XYQ or XY, the masters take what they consider that fits their style, body type, preferences, etc, and give it preference, or modify it.

That's the case, for example, of Wang Shujin's Xingyi. Since he was a big guy, the use of his weight gave him advance. That's what you see that his style is heavy, flowing, like a huge tank rolling down. On the other hand, Shang Yunxiang, being a small guy, modified what he had learned to create his style, that shows a quick, snapping force with explosiveness.

[Daniel]

We already have people stepping in who have much more knowledge on the topic than me, but here´s some added help:

1) In Xinyi, you have the Five Element energies and tactics inside the movements of the Animals; there are not, as far as I know, any separate Five Element Fists like those that create the core practice in Xingyi. I have asked one long-time practitioner about this (Qian Zhoutian) and he gave that answer.

2) Xinyi seems to me (primarily a Xingyi-practitioner, only done a little Xinyi but have watched a lot of it to try to see how it moves and works) smaller frame than much of Xingyi (even though Xingyi can be done small frame too). The movements differ in quality; the mind differs, the connections and general intention of the style differs. It feels more compact in movement if not density than much of Xingyi.

3) Xinyi is supposed to have very specific and unusual practices for how you use the lower dantian. I know many versions of LDT-practices, but not which specific ones Xinyi does. They´re supposed to be a characteristic of genuine Xinyi.

Good thread; I have actually wondered myself how Xingyi could have been born out of Xinyi. They are similar, but to my eyes, very different.

I also don´t know if Xinyi does standing-practices or not, or if they do, how and how much. (This is a good time for Dai Zhiqiang to step in on the scene with some timely low-key coughs and explanations, a whiteboard, some power-point presentations and a scantily clad female assistant ).

Nor do I know if Xinyi is as detailed on how the Five Element energies actually work as Xingyi is.

And let´s incur more karmic debt to Jarek with these great articles:

Xinyi-lineage: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/xylhhistory.html

Overview: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy.html

The missing link between Xinyi and Xingyi: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/guoweihan.html


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

I had a little read through this thread and decided to post this viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2972

JB

[Daniel]

...okay, Dai, respect... Those were some seriously long posts, and with good info too. I´ll read through them in detail later. Thanks.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

...okay, Dai, respect... Those were some seriously long posts, and with good info too. I´ll read through them in detail later. Thanks.



D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

It was a rough translation (Josh could do better, but he is snowed down with studies), but it is better than nothing and does bring up some interesting points.

JB.

[Jingang]

Ther are 8 vcd's made by Shanxi practitioners showing the difference between Song, Che, Dai and Xinyi liu he.
It those vcds Xinyi liuhe do have 5 fists. Do any of you know why is that? I mean, If xinyi-liuhe only had 10 animals, how come they have 5 fists there?

btw
the 5 fists looked like any other hebei xingyi

[Felipe Bidó]

Ther are 8 vcd's made by Shanxi practitioners showing the difference between Song, Che, Dai and Xinyi liu he.
It those vcds Xinyi liuhe do have 5 fists. Do any of you know why is that? I mean, If xinyi-liuhe only had 10 animals, how come they have 5 fists there?

btw
the 5 fists looked like any other hebei xingyi

Actually, what they showed there is not Xinyiliuhe. It's Luihe Xinyi. It is a variation of Che style developed by a Che student (if you notice, the Che forms and the Liuhe Xinyi forms are very similar, almost the same). if I remember correctly, he said that he checked the Che family books and modified according to it.

Many people have had that confusion (even Dai Zhi Qiang the first time he joined the forum; he thought I was talking about Xinyiliuhe and I was talking about Liuhe Xinyi), but that's not Xinyi Liuhequan

[Jingang]

Thanks Felipe
That's very interesting. It's the first time I hear about this difference. Do you by any chance know what's the name of that student?
Why would they show it as an equal branch of Shanxi xingyi?!