Personal practice - Separating Wheat from the Chaff

[Quigga]

I should add that authenticity is a claim closely bound to pride... Not meaning to insult anyone, yet due to current circumstances no way around saying that: some authentic recipes are shit... Authentic then implies clean transmission back to the original originator of X idea. Having a clear track to follow is an awesome thing in many areas, yet the X on the map can sometimes yield no treasure at all.

Your money - your resources - your choice - your demise - solemn sunrise - awaiting in solitude my surprise - gratitude what I fantasize - platitudes are all I realize. Nice.

[Giles]

I should add that authenticity is a claim closely bound to pride... Not meaning to insult anyone, yet due to current circumstances no way around saying that: some authentic recipes are shit... Authentic then implies clean transmission back to the original originator of X idea. Having a clear track to follow is an awesome thing in many areas, yet the X on the map can sometimes yield no treasure at all.

Insofar as "authentic" is used as a claim today, and especially in the sense of "we trace our lineage back to X, hence we must really good", I agree. Although of course this doesn't apply to all claims to be, or designations as, "authentic". Some "authentic" schools and people can be excellent. But as always, there's no substitute for: show me what you do, let me feel it.

[origami_itto]

I'd rather give my mom a hug

You're a braver man than me Quigga, her breath could stop a Mack truck and I'll tell that to anyone who'll listen.

Who even skates like that?

Fuck you, Sea Wolf! Your mom just liked my Instagram post from two years ago in Puerto Vallarta. Tell her I’ll put my swim trunks on for her any time she likes.

[origami_itto]

Dammit! You kids better start getting along here, or else you can march straight to your rooms until you decide to stay on topic. LOL

Okay back on topic, just had to detour into a little discussion of my favorite Canadian comedy.

[origami_itto]

Dammit! You kids better start getting along here, or else you can march straight to your rooms until you decide to stay on topic. LOL

Linesman stepping in with that "Who wants to hurt their team more boys? Cause I'm only taking one of ya... I'm only takin one of ya."

"Authentic" is the strange part to me, what makes a fighting art objectively authentic? Is it authentic because of it's direct lineage? Appearance? Applicability?
If I learned a technique concept from youtube but can apply it more consistently and effectively than another instructor of the same art - is his authentic or is mine? Was his authenticity determined by lineage or mine authentic determined by its adherence to function?

This is a thought experiment - If I have a form that was taught to me but not the traditional application, but I use my other skills to reverse engineer applications for those movements and they are effective if different than what may have been the original usage - how is that distinction drawn? especially if the traditional application is no longer demonstrable by the supposed true lineage holders?

When Yin Fu did his Bagua different from Dong hai chuan - was it wrong, inauthentic, contemporary or counter to tradition?

Authenticity, to me, speaks to the method itself. If you look at the accounts if the Yang family greats they all had subtly different expressions of the art.

But the art encompasses both civil and martial accomplishment, so to me authentic Taijiquan must at the very least demonstrably cultivate both.

Going further there are infinite variations in combat, so for an art of civil and martial cultivation to be rightly called authentic Taijiquan then at least the combat strategies and tactics should follow the principles outlined in the classics, overcoming hardness with softness, etc.

So I guess when I say I study authentic Taijiquan what I'm really saying is Try Jesus.

[Appledog]

When Yin Fu did his Bagua different from Dong hai chuan - was it wrong, inauthentic, contemporary or counter to tradition?

Authenticity, to me, speaks to the method itself. If you look at the accounts if the Yang family greats they all had subtly different expressions of the art.

But the art encompasses both civil and martial accomplishment, so to me authentic Taijiquan must at the very least demonstrably cultivate both.

Going further there are infinite variations in combat, so for an art of civil and martial cultivation to be rightly called authentic Taijiquan then at least the combat strategies and tactics should follow the principles outlined in the classics, overcoming hardness with softness, etc.

So I guess when I say I study authentic Taijiquan what I'm really saying is Try Jesus.

Authenticity is not about choosing a style, it is about choosing a teacher. The teacher then can impart to you the authentic methods, your expression of which will be very different.

The idea of a different expression is actually central to the teaching method of tai chi, as I have found it.

As for other aspects of authenticity, I would posit you (origami) almost certainly do not practice "authentic" taijiquan. You're more like the guy in the video -- if something about what's written doesn't sit right with you, then you throw it out (and take something else in). Well, there's nothing wrong with that. Authenticity, having 'lineage' and all that, can be a terrible burden, with some positives but probably more negatives. From what Doc has written I think he understands something of it in a way none of you do. If you fail at your goals it is only ever the result of your own pathetic laziness. Never the method. The method, and usually the teachers, are far beyond your reach. It is like university versus gradeschool. Maybe even worse than that. Honestly I don't think anyone here can understand. Sometimes the pressure comes from nowhere but yourself, because you know how important things really are even if you are told differently. It is suffocating. I don't see that in your writings, but that might be because it's just pixels on a screen.

Cho Chikun said that he hated to play go, that it was an excruciating exercise in concentration and suffering, that his parents forced him to do. But he also said that as a result he is happy he could win the million dollars. Wu Qingyuan said he loved to play go and committed himself to a mental institution when he was 20 so he could study go like a monk. Choose a teacher, not a style.

I'm sorry that some teachers try to lie and cheat their students.

[origami_itto]

When Yin Fu did his Bagua different from Dong hai chuan - was it wrong, inauthentic, contemporary or counter to tradition?

Authenticity, to me, speaks to the method itself. If you look at the accounts if the Yang family greats they all had subtly different expressions of the art.

But the art encompasses both civil and martial accomplishment, so to me authentic Taijiquan must at the very least demonstrably cultivate both.

Going further there are infinite variations in combat, so for an art of civil and martial cultivation to be rightly called authentic Taijiquan then at least the combat strategies and tactics should follow the principles outlined in the classics, overcoming hardness with softness, etc.

So I guess when I say I study authentic Taijiquan what I'm really saying is Try Jesus.

Authenticity is not about choosing a style, it is about choosing a teacher. The teacher then can impart to you the authentic methods, your expression of which will be very different.

The idea of a different expression is actually central to the teaching method of tai chi, as I have found it.

As for other aspects of authenticity, I would posit you (origami) almost certainly do not practice "authentic" taijiquan. You're more like the guy in the video -- if something about what's written doesn't sit right with you, then you throw it out (and take something else in). Well, there's nothing wrong with that. Authenticity, having 'lineage' and all that, can be a terrible burden, with some positives but probably more negatives. From what Doc has written I think he understands something of it in a way none of you do. If you fail at your goals it is only ever the result of your own pathetic laziness. Never the method. The method, and usually the teachers, are far beyond your reach. It is like university versus gradeschool. Maybe even worse than that. Honestly I don't think anyone here can understand. Sometimes the pressure comes from nowhere but yourself, because you know how important things really are even if you are told differently. It is suffocating. I don't see that in your writings, but that might be because it's just pixels on a screen.

Cho Chikun said that he hated to play go, that it was an excruciating exercise in concentration and suffering, that his parents forced him to do. But he also said that as a result he is happy he could win the million dollars. Wu Qingyuan said he loved to play go and committed himself to a mental institution when he was 20 so he could study go like a monk. Choose a teacher, not a style.

I'm sorry that some teachers try to lie and cheat their students.

Yes I have enthusiasm and curiosity, but no skill. It is a definite problem. Which you should know, having spent so much time training with me and pushing hands.

But it works for me, so I'll keep studying.

[origami_itto]

But as always, there's no substitute for: show me what you do, let me feel it.

That's sort of where I'm at with it. I've met some folks with big names and famous teachers whose hands were entirely empty, and not in a good way.

But I mean... it doesn't matter, it truly doesn't matter. You know... the likelihood of any of us really being called on to "test our art" is pretty slim, and the deciding factor in our surviving unscathed is probably not going to be our kung fu fighting ability.

We've honestly got a much greater chance of breaking a hip falling in the shower. You know they've proven that Taijiquan helps improve reflexes and balance and lessen falls and the harm from falls in students of all ages and beginning skill levels?

I mean, I'm glad it's there. There's a reason I'm not doing crossfit instead, right, I like directly applicable physical conditioning that's interesting and not just exhausting. There's been enough to keep me interested for 20 years so far, not that you could tell, and hopefully 50 years more if I live right.

Combined with meditation to help me manage my stress, depression, and mania and keep me from being my own worst enemy. You know they've actually proven Taijiquan lowers the level of harmful stress related hormones in the blood?

The kind of conflict I'm faced with more frequently involves competing ideas, egos, personalities, defending naïve people against predatory behavior. Physical contact is not usually appropriate, and if it does come to that, injury is best left limited for many reasons. I find the strategies and tactics of Taijiquan translate directly into the mental and spiritual planes on which these battles are fought.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe we're called upon to test our art daily. Is our art a means of learning to beat an opponent? Is that all it is? Is that all there is to wrest from this devotion?

I treat it like a path of personal cultivation. The civil and martial accomplishments are not two sides of a coin, they are two sides of a blade that come together in an edge.

How sharp is your edge? Is your blade for healing or killing? Feeding or plundering?

Who do you need to fight?

So, I don't know, Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV)

In Taijiquan terms, I am a pauper with no pockets raiding a dragon's horde for coins too large for my tiny hands to carry home and spend, but I feel so much richer than I did without it in my life that I can't find a bit of regret in any teachers I've learned from or ideas that carried me a little further before being discarded.

The only regrets I do have are the times I've let my ego keep me from learning what someone was in my life to teach me, but I suppose in those cases, that was the lesson.

[Doc Stier]

Your respective style; your teacher's lineage, fame, rank or title; your length of time in martial arts, etc, have no relevance whatsoever, imo, unless you can demonstrate significant personal benefits and skills derived from your studies and practice by comparison to other practitioners in your own or other groups. Failure to produce such observable results is nearly always due to the practitioner's weak and inconsistent efforts stemming from laziness and lack of perseverance, rather than anything else. Small investments yield small returns every time.

For example, among all of the students my primary teacher taught during more than half a century of teaching, only five of us completed the entire system curriculum and were wise enough to realize that this was the real starting point in our pursuit of excellence and expertise, not the final goal of our previous efforts. With very few exceptions through the years, nearly everyone else quit somewhere along the way.

The reasons or excuses for quitting included a strong dislike of 'eating bitter' in the decidedly Old School training methods, great dissatisfaction with their slow rate of progress, usually accompanied by butt hurt complaints about the teacher's unwillingness to teach them advanced material before acquiring competency with basic body methods, the distracting demands of their jobs or relationships, and so forth.

At the end of each day, however, they didn't want to set achievable goals and make the necessary efforts to reach them. That isn't the teacher's fault, or the fault of the style or system. There are no good excuses for failure, but there are many good reasons to pursue excellence. Just do it!

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

But you have done things wrong, although it's not your fault.

What exactly did I do wrong?

[johnwang]

it is very easy to claim many TMA do not share that efficacy for the time spent. Is this because they are more complex and difficult to apply or because they are not being taught to be effective?

I will say most TMA instructors don't know the proper teaching method. For example, if you teach Taiji "cloud hand", you can ask your student to use

- right clockwise circle to deflect his opponent's left punch.
- left counter-clockwise circle to deflect and wrap his opponent's right punching arm.
- right arm to lock his opponent's head, use right leg block to take his opponent down.

If you ask your student to drill this 10,000 times on his resisted training partner, your student may be able to develop some "door guarding" skill within 3 to 5 years.

The problem is, how many TMA teachers who teaches this way in today's environment?

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

it is very easy to claim many TMA do not share that efficacy for the time spent. Is this because they are more complex and difficult to apply or because they are not being taught to be effective?

I will say most TMA instructors don't know the proper teaching method. For example, if you teach Taiji "cloud hand", you can ask your student to use

- right clockwise circle to deflect his opponent's left punch.
- left counter-clockwise circle to deflect and wrap his opponent's right punching arm.
- right arm to lock his opponent's head, use right leg block to take his opponent down.

If you ask your student to drill this 10,000 times on his resisted training partner, your student may be able to develop some "door guarding" skill within 3 to 5 years.

The problem is, how many TMA teachers who teaches this way in today's environment?

Not enough.