Personal practice - Separating Wheat from the Chaff

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

Sometimes saying sorry is the quickest and easiest way to end a quarrel

I'm Canadian so I already apologize all the time.

[origami_itto]

Sometimes saying sorry is the quickest and easiest way to end a quarrel

I'm Canadian so I already apologize all the time.

[Quigga]

I'd rather give my mom a hug

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

Sometimes saying sorry is the quickest and easiest way to end a quarrel

I'm Canadian so I already apologize all the time.

Fuck you, Itto, Your life’s so fucking pathetic, I ran a charity 15k to raise awareness for it.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

I'd rather give my mom a hug

You're a braver man than me Quigga, her breath could stop a Mack truck and I'll tell that to anyone who'll listen.

[Quigga]

Haha

[Doc Stier]

Dammit! You kids better start getting along here, or else you can march straight to your rooms until you decide to stay on topic. LOL

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

Dammit! You kids better start getting along here, or else you can march straight to your rooms until you decide to stay on topic. LOL

Linesman stepping in with that "Who wants to hurt their team more boys? Cause I'm only taking one of ya... I'm only takin one of ya."

"Authentic" is the strange part to me, what makes a fighting art objectively authentic? Is it authentic because of it's direct lineage? Appearance? Applicability?
If I learned a technique concept from youtube but can apply it more consistently and effectively than another instructor of the same art - is his authentic or is mine? Was his authenticity determined by lineage or mine authentic determined by its adherence to function?

This is a thought experiment - If I have a form that was taught to me but not the traditional application, but I use my other skills to reverse engineer applications for those movements and they are effective if different than what may have been the original usage - how is that distinction drawn? especially if the traditional application is no longer demonstrable by the supposed true lineage holders?

When Yin Fu did his Bagua different from Dong hai chuan - was it wrong, inauthentic, contemporary or counter to tradition?

[Appledog]

If at 40, 50 or 60 you find yourself in a position where you have studied a lot of different martial arts but you haven't yet reached your goals.. start over.

Pick an art, go in at the ground level, and just do it. Focus on an art and develop it to a high level before moving on to something else. Give it at least 10 years.

I see a lot of irrational impudence on this thread. No, you do not know better than people who have practiced more and harder and better than you for longer periods of time who may even have actually been in real fights before (just maybe!)

I recommend Judo or Tai Chi, with the caveat that you need to go to a school that does some kind of randori.

Your personal experiences until this point are only weighing you down. You have to go through the system, and 'eat bitter' so to speak inside that system or you will never really get anywhere. And always remember, no matter how far you get, no matter what you learn about physical combat, it is only ever about your morals and what kind of person you are.

In any case I hope you keep posting updates here because I would like to see how this works out, whether or not you take my advice.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

If at 40, 50 or 60 you find yourself in a position where you have studied a lot of different martial arts but you haven't yet reached your goals.. start over.

Pick an art, go in at the ground level, and just do it. Focus on an art and develop it to a high level before moving on to something else. Give it at least 10 years.

I see a lot of irrational impudence on this thread. No, you do not know better than people who have practiced more and harder and better than you for longer periods of time who may even have actually been in real fights before (just maybe!)

I recommend Judo or Tai Chi, with the caveat that you need to go to a school that does some kind of randori.

Your personal experiences until this point are only weighing you down. You have to go through the system, and 'eat bitter' so to speak inside that system or you will never really get anywhere. And always remember, no matter how far you get, no matter what you learn about physical combat, it is only ever about your morals and what kind of person you are.

In any case I hope you keep posting updates here because I would like to see how this works out, whether or not you take my advice.

Hi Appledog, welcome to the show. Please understand, I made this thread as a person who has, to my thinking, done just that, repeatedly. I have no issues with my ability as a martial artist - I am an objectively talented fighter. This thread is intended to be about asking how or if others have looked back on decades of training that they've done and deciding what was worth keeping "in the bank" and what was discarded.

That the focus has shifted to me and what I've done or are perceived to have done in error is more a reflection on individuals taking umbrage at not having been knelt and scraped before when they tried to play wise-master-on-the-mount. If platitudes about "trusting the path" worked on me I would still be with the cult-leader I spent 2 decades with so when I'm faced with similarly baseless rhetoric I'm happy being polite isn't mandatory for retaining my Canadian passport.

I appreciate the advice and you seem well-meaning but none of the practices I am speaking about re-assessing have less than a decade of study behind them, all of which included randori, being a sparring partner for national level competitors, my own competitions and time spent coaching. I don't think it impudent to question a system that does not appear to garner the results it claims to. No one with any sense could say a good judoka can't throw someone, or a good boxer can't punch - and yet it is very easy to claim many TMA do not share that efficacy for the time spent. Is this because they are more complex and difficult to apply or because they are not being taught to be effective?

BuddyGuy talking about his student Pete who is now "good" at his art after prolonged practice but still can't fight and never would be a fighter, or maybe can fight, who knows, is his instructor even an instructor? Who is to say. The amorphous nature of TMA skill assessment where "higher level skill" can have literally nothing to do with martial ability but still is somehow considered equally valid to the rank and file.

Slight segue:
I don't think martial training has any implicit impact on a persons morality, bullies love training martial arts as much as their victims do. Expecting an instructor to teach fighting and also competently act as a counsellor or psychologist or even be assumed to be a good person because of their martial training is absurd.

Instructors can, and will always, come in spectrums of personal skill and teaching ability, they also come in a spectrum of wholesome and toxic personality types.

[windwalker]

To be authentic is to be the author of oneself
“Mike Staples“

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUkSdvEwKMc

Michael Staples - Ep 147 - whistlekick Martial Arts Radio Podcast #140:

In the pod cast Mike talks about seeing a kung fu guy sparing with Master Fumio Demura's "出村 文男" karate students
His name Ron Dong,,a student of Shifu Gorge Long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUkSdvEwKMc


Rong Dong --- Mike Staples


Authenticity

Some thoughts

A very deep question in part answered by ones practice provided its based on being authentic.

The constant search in finding a true teacher teaching “authentic” taiji as practiced by past masters.

Much time is spent in finding teachers each claiming to have an “authentic” practice.
One might ask what this authenticity is based on.


I have come to understand that this can only come from ones self.

In reaching this understanding I have concluded what I now practice can no longer be considered taiji as it is commonly
known and thought of coming from a distinct family practice or known historical style that most recognize as taiji.

What is called taiji in this day and age, I often wonder would it be called so by the past masters who founded the art.
What would be their perspectives of today’s practices.

I wonder why so many look for the hidden master, secret teachings or practices that no one else knows,
what is it they’er really looking for or expect to find?

Does it really matter?

For me it no longer matters.

Not a comment on present day masters or practices,
Only noting changes I’ve gone though in my own work.

[Doc Stier]

I used to strive for greater apathy about all of the issues raised on this thread, but now I simply don't care anymore.

As I reflect on the experience of 60+ years of training in various martial arts to date, I am grateful for every learning opportunity I had with every teacher. Something of value was acquired from each of them.

I am also thankful, and a bit surprised, that I was able at a young age to accurately discern which method offered the best potential means of achieving my personal goals in a sustained practice over time.

This is what I have pursued with dedicated, disciplined perseverance since then. Now, I can look back and feel extraordinarily happy that I chose to seriously train what I learned and never quit. It's all good!

[Appledog]

Hi Appledog, welcome to the show. Please understand, I made this thread as a person who has, to my thinking, done just that, repeatedly. I have no issues with my ability as a martial artist - I am an objectively talented fighter. This thread is intended to be about asking how or if others have looked back on decades of training that they've done and deciding what was worth keeping "in the bank" and what was discarded.

That the focus has shifted to me and what I've done or are perceived to have done in error is more a reflection on individuals taking umbrage at not having been knelt and scraped before when they tried to play wise-master-on-the-mount.

But you have done things wrong, although it's not your fault. You were a traditionalist who had bad experiences with cult leaders and you became a style mutt. Yet you came out on top. I guess all I am saying is that you should find a place for yourself somewhere -- like as a member of a judo club -- where you fit in and can make friends and enjoy the company of other martial artists. If you feel up to it, my advice would be to run your own school or maybe continue to compete but at a lighter (edit: activity) level. Maybe coach some people. Develop meaningful and fulfilling relationships that way. I'll admit I haven't really been following the thread but it does sound like you don't have a strong place as a member of a community of like minded individuals, and I've always felt that was the most important part of a martial arts group. Its not good to be alone all the time. And if it turns out, in the company of the others, you end up never practicing what you learned before, then maybe you don't need it for the happy life you are living now.

I'd rather be a member of a martial arts school where I have a chance of meeting a friend or a girlfriend there rather than just getting a sweat and going home.

[Ad_B]

To be authentic is to be the author of oneself
“Mike Staples“

Authenticity

Some thoughts

A very deep question in part answered by ones practice provided its based on being authentic.

The constant search in finding a true teacher teaching “authentic” taiji as practiced by past masters.

Much time is spent in finding teachers each claiming to have an “authentic” practice.
One might ask what this authenticity is based on.


I have come to understand that this can only come from ones self.

In reaching this understanding I have concluded what I now practice can no longer be considered taiji as it is commonly
known and thought of coming from a distinct family practice or known historical style that most recognize as taiji.

What is called taiji in this day and age, I often wonder would it be called so by the past masters who founded the art.
What would be their perspectives of today’s practices.

I wonder why so many look for the hidden master, secret teachings or practices that no one else knows,
what is it they’re really looking for or expect to find?

Does it really matter?

For me it no longer matters.

Not a comment on present day masters or practices,
Only noting changes I’ve gone though in my own work.

Thanks for that, it 'rings a bell' with me.

Re: Wheat/chaff, tradition/practicality etc my Taiji is really a personal and physical evolution based upon core concepts but of course, we need to know what the core-concepts are, how to train them, test them and apply them in a manner that is possibly far away from an origional intention in a particular era.

Personally, I'd say that if I'd been taught, then practised, then compared and contrasted (I really like to read the Brennan translations and others' introductions and explanations to get a sense of various individuals' perspective of the same thing which helps inform and develop my own ) and then applied whatever it is to whatever its need for and got a good working result then perhaps that's authentic ?

However, it may not seem authentic to a pre-industrial Daoist scholar, caravan bodyguard or Junk marine and it really doesn't matter, does it?

We are lucky in our present era to have access to information, translations and a global reach of experience in studying and learning but there's an awful lot of chaff to sift through, non the least due to one persons' chaff being another persons' wheat and vice-versa and thus it probably cannot be avoided that authenticity has a very personal element (does it work for you) plus a very contested consensus element (does everybody else agree) plus an historical element (what do the origional authors, teachers and students say....and has it been translated and understood correctly by us), so each individual has to 'take ownership' of their own 'authentic art' and 'self-certify' it ?

[Quigga]

Authenticity is trusting in a brand
Coke or Pepsi
Does it hit the spot or not

Besides that... You need to trust in documents and historical and verbal accounts. We all believe that at least some of our stories we tell others and ourselves are true...

Serrano ham is only to be found originally coming out of that province (protected origin is the point, I could be wrong)

Pinning knowledge down - the attempt - to geographical areas, claiming no other nation's people can have it; bound to fail, yet still human so ok

My fist hits like truth that hits like a fist...

Be true to your self - that implies something untrue is to be discarded; can't lose everything all at once, that's called disaster

Authentic is also a popular advertising term. Not a guarantee of quality...

Something can be authentic and still suck... Due to unskilled execution. If you got a heritage recipe and a shit cook chances are 50/50, at best.

Food for thought, thanks a bunch. I made some slow braised pork belly yesterday, was delicisio