Personal practice - Separating Wheat from the Chaff

[wayne hansen]

I had a student who was 6’7” gangly and a bit awkward
He moved away for work
When he came back he was doing the form better than anyone I had seen
His long limbs made it look great
I asked him if he had got a new teacher where he was

He said no but when he was training with me he thought of the exercise as mine
When he was on his own he started looking deep inside the exercises and the improvement came

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

"keep going, you'll understand later" ...

I will never say that to my students. I told them that if they want to develop

- strong head lock, and
- powerful leg twist,

they will need to spend time in "pole hanging". Whether they will spend time to do that is not under my control. CMA is dying out just because people don't want to do their homework.

I've seen your pole hanging drills, the progress in an exercise like would be self-evident by hanging longer, gripping tighter - I wouldn't count them in the same category. People don't want to do their homework in general, but something like pole hanging and other Shuai Jiao strength training exercises are so directly applicable a every level of proficiency denying the value isn't logical. Moreover someone doing pole-hanging makes progress but stays human, it's not like they do the same thing for 40 years and then the tree they are hanging on explodes into splinters as they reach the final form. I'm more skeptical of progression after decades of training which wayne can't seem to explain but is definitely real.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

I had a student who was 6’7” gangly and a bit awkward
He moved away for work
When he came back he was doing the form better than anyone I had seen
His long limbs made it look great
I asked him if he had got a new teacher where he was

He said no but when he was training with me he thought of the exercise as mine
When he was on his own he started looking deep inside the exercises and the improvement came

Ok, he looked better after a period of solo time practicing movements as taught... I don't see that kind of progress as unusual or outlandish especially if he had the memory and diligence to practice the "form" in good faith... but could he fight with it competently after that training or just look better?

[johnwang]

he was doing the form better than anyone I had seen ...

This is why I asked "What's your path?" What's the usage of "better form?"

[johnwang]

Is it objectively more valuable to retain a little of an art in good faith (able to demonstrate form and application under pressure) or to retain a lot of the form and ritual of the art at the expense of the trainings rigor and ability to apply the diverse concepts.

In the last 2 weeks, one of my students wants to take his 1st degree BB test. The testing requirement covers over 60 different throws. But I just want him to have at least 1 sold entering strategy and 1 solid finish strategy. My requirement on him is:

- Throw a punch and try to make arm contact.
- Wrap opponent's blocking arm.
- Comb hair opponent's other arm.
- Obtain a head lock and take opponent down.

We spent over an hour on this. My student tried this sequence on his resisted opponent about 40 times until he could execute 3 times successfully in a sequence.

This is the way that I trained. I also try to pass down this kind training method to the next generation.

In other words, I prefer my student to do one thing well instead of to learn many things and won't be able to use it.

[wayne hansen]

I can explain everything I do but not to those who would never understand
No pete was not a fighter and will never be
That wasn’t the point I was explaining a principle

[Doc Stier]

In my own teaching experience since 1973, I have repeatedly observed that many students fail to derive much practical fighting skill, or other discernable benefits over time, even though they were taught an effective system of replicable training material designed to achieve those goals.

Their results, therefore, are the predictable outcome solely of their own laziness and weak efforts in practicing what they learned. It is not the fault of the training methods or their inability to understand and use same to make steady progress. Typically, this type of student avidly reads related books and magazines, watches relevant videos, and debates the fine points of the practices to the death online, but they rarely establish a serious training regimen. Thus, their subjective relationship to the arts is primarily intellectual rather than experiential.

A good teacher can open the door for us, but we have to enter by ourselves and make the most of the opportunity at hand, since nobody can practice for us.

[johnwang]

many students fail to derive much practical fighting skill,...

The sad thing that can happen to people is people may spent all their life in MA training, during the day they die, they still have not developed any valuable skill yet.

A: What MA skill do you try to maintain during your old age?
B: I try to maintain a, b, and ...
C: I don't have anything to maintain. I have never developed anything.

It's better to be like B. It's sad to be like C.

The way that I look at this is if I can use my circular punches to knock down my opponent's straight punches, I have proved that when my opponent attacks me, the best solution is to attack him at the same time.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

I can explain everything I do but not to those who would never understand
No pete was not a fighter and will never be
That wasn’t the point I was explaining a principle

Ah ok, Pete was a bad dancer and became a better dancer by doing his dancing drills... good for Pete.
I thought you were a martial arts instructor? Is that what you meant by different paths?
I think I see your Pointe.

[wayne hansen]

I don’t know wether I am a martial arts instructor or not
Pete can most likely fight a lot better now than when he started
He is not a dancer
I think most fighters are born not made
Some people no matter how hard they train never become fighters
Some think they are until the crunch comes

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

I don’t know wether I am a martial arts instructor or not
Pete can most likely fight a lot better now than when he started
He is not a dancer
I think most fighters are born not made
Some people no matter how hard they train never become fighters
Some think they are until the crunch comes

"Fighters are born not made" belongs on the trashpile with "you can't teach punching power." The exceptional elite are gifted, everyone else gets what they work for and only shitty students and shitty coaches say otherwise. Not a lot of point in spending decades on anything with that perspective.

I understand a bit better now - Pete is not a dancer, but definitely not a fighter... but a better fighter than he used to be, maybe... depending on what happens when/if "the crunch" comes and you may or may not be a martial arts instructor... I feel like you're playing chess in a game of checkers, friend.

I'll hit you with a quote of my own - “However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results” ~ Winston Churchill.
It sounds like your results are fluidly defined by design which is indeed a different path to the one I want to be on.

many students fail to derive much practical fighting skill,...

The sad thing that can happen to people is people may spent all their life in MA training, during the day they die, they still have not developed any valuable skill yet.

A: What MA skill do you try to maintain during your old age?
B: I try to maintain a, b, and ...
C: I don't have anything to maintain. I have never developed anything.

It's better to be like B. It's sad to be like C.

Doc and John, thank you for engaging this dialogue in better faith, I agree that some students are unable to derive fighting skill from training but I think what is really being discussed it how applicable was the training to begin with. If the form is flowery and applications obscure then transitioning it to combative use is more difficult event if a student is diligent and skilled. I appreciate what John is saying with regards to tangible accomplishments through training. Having many techniques that aren't adequately forceful or well-timed is far worse than having one that can be applied meaningfully and speaks to the issue I raised initially with how one could parse training if the syllabus has become unwieldy.

[wayne hansen]

This is my last reply to you
You don’t get it you never will
You try to insult me so what
I don’t care
Then you try to cosy up to doc and John to cover your back
I would love to see some of your stuff to see what a truly deadly man looks like
Churchill on tactics
That will do me
Do you know how many men he used as cannon fodder

[Quigga]

Rhythm is dancer
It's a soul companion
You can feel it in the air
Everywhere
Wooo OOOOH
ITS A PASSION
WOO OOOOOH

[Quigga]

Pressure is the name of the game
You can take it up to a certain point, everybody has their breaking point no matter how tough
This is what separates

Who are you after having been broken
Can you deal with being broken
All fake strength and fake support pillars break away when faced with this

Sort of like tempering iron or steel
Need to get the shock just right - tempering etc

You don't want to fight

Either way, the tool either serves it's purpose or not

[Quigga]

You can change people quite a bit, but natural progression and evolution in this life time look differently for everyone

What would be the point if everyone could do everything equally well.. No need for society then