"Honest" Sparring

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:25 pm

marvin8 wrote:1) Alex steps left with front foot and circle steps back with right leg, leading (yin) Sean to step forward 2. Alex listens (ting) for Sean to right downward parry and lift front leg (double weight) 3. Alex level changes (na), then shifts weight to the back foot (hua), while issuing (fa) left check hook, before Sean plants his front foot.

2) As I posted and linked to, it is garnered through an understanding of principles, concepts, strategies, skills and (not "only") "progressive experience under pressure."

3) I explained what Pereira did biomechanically and similar IMA skills (via several clips, videos and links) in reply to posts and within the context of the thread. If you disagree, please clarify in your own terms.

4) I posted similar IMA concepts, strategies and skills. And, I posted how they are trained and developed in drills, sparring and high level fights.

5) Sparring helps to develop skills in luring, listening, control, neutralization, attack, distance, timing, positioning, rhythm, etc.


1) Describing this sequence in IMA terms is like running a complicated paragraph through google translate - I get why you're trying to do it, it isn't jibberish, but it isn't as clear as you think it is.

2) Progressive experience under pressure is the most effective and important element of learning complex skills - IMO where TMA fail is in having an ocean of theory and a thimble of practice. I know this is an offensive attitude but Xu Xiaodong said it in much uglier terms - I respect the value of traditional methods, but am resolved that efficacy is best/more often/more easily found through contemporary training methods.

3) I don't disagree, I understand what your aim is, where we have difficulty is that it comes across as "this mma fighter is good because he has good understanding of IMA principles" to which I reply - "why don't a majority of IMA practitioners understand/apply their own principles."

4) Same issue - overlaying IMA concepts onto MMA training is not the same as showing how IMA is effective - Instead show me an IMA school that is training this way, not pretending "good MMA is good IMA." I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying it is not often seen. Luo Dexiu is incredibly skilled, he fought, his early students fought, their training for fighting and their ideology around graduating from recreational to combative practice is not readily established and I do not believe their group actively competes in any such forum in the present day.

5) Yes, it does... that's why I wanted to hear diverse sparring concepts used by people in this forum as tools for isolating these elements for development. Not looking at open sparring videos and fight clips and calling timing, footwork, and position by different names.
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:23 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:
marvin8 wrote:1) Alex steps left with front foot and circle steps back with right leg, leading (yin) Sean to step forward 2. Alex listens (ting) for Sean to right downward parry and lift front leg (double weight) 3. Alex level changes (na), then shifts weight to the back foot (hua), while issuing (fa) left check hook, before Sean plants his front foot.

2) As I posted and linked to, it is garnered through an understanding of principles, concepts, strategies, skills and (not "only") "progressive experience under pressure."

3) I explained what Pereira did biomechanically and similar IMA skills (via several clips, videos and links) in reply to posts and within the context of the thread. If you disagree, please clarify in your own terms.

4) I posted similar IMA concepts, strategies and skills. And, I posted how they are trained and developed in drills, sparring and high level fights.

5) Sparring helps to develop skills in luring, listening, control, neutralization, attack, distance, timing, positioning, rhythm, etc.

1) Describing this sequence in IMA terms is like running a complicated paragraph through google translate - I get why you're trying to do it, it isn't jibberish, but it isn't as clear as you think it is.

Zhang Yun's "complete process" of yin, ting, na, hua and fa is simple, but has depth. So, It may not be clear. The posted high level trainer's MMA drills and actual fights are examples of how similar skills are trained and used, step-by-step.

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:3) I don't disagree, I understand what your aim is, where we have difficulty is that it comes across as "this mma fighter is good because he has good understanding of IMA principles" to which I reply - "why don't a majority of IMA practitioners understand/apply their own principles."

Some MMAists are good because they go through a similar skills process to the one Zhang Yun describes. However, they developed it independent of each other. Zhang Yun's definitions and goals are the same as MMA. However, there may be differences in training methods, how the skills are applied, etc.
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:59 pm

marvin8 wrote:Some MMAists are good because they go through a similar skills process to the one Zhang Yun describes. However, they developed it independent of each other. Zhang Yun's definitions and goals are the same as MMA. However, there may be differences in training methods, how the skills are applied, etc.


I understand there are "similar" written concepts in traditional practice but the successful transition from theory to practice in students of IMA is rare or non-existent at this time. There are so many stories of traditional schools being "fighting schools" but next to no examples of that today.

The purpose of this thread was less about identifying similar written theories and more about nudging people towards the methods "being used" to achieve comparable results at a similar level.

It's not about making IMA into MMA, but the premise of "someone is trying to take off your head" in a match or wherever - and having the experience from in training to cope with that situation without flinching/adrenaline dump/flailing which is how it usually goes for people who don't "spar honestly."
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:11 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:I understand there are "similar" written concepts in traditional practice but the successful transition from theory to practice in students of IMA is rare or non-existent at this time. There are so many stories of traditional schools being "fighting schools" but next to no examples of that today.

I share similar experience—with professional combat sports fighters apparently having the higher level fighting skills.

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:The purpose of this thread was less about identifying similar written theories and more about nudging people towards the methods "being used" to achieve comparable results at a similar level.

It's not about making IMA into MMA, but the premise of "someone is trying to take off your head" in a match or wherever - and having the experience from in training to cope with that situation without flinching/adrenaline dump/flailing which is how it usually goes for people who don't "spar honestly."

If one only spars to "land his attack on his opponent, win that round and develop a certain skill," then they may be building dangerous habits. As George Hickman says, "The opponent can just step back and/or counter [resulting in trading punches]."

That's why it's important to "identify," understand and train a sequence of skills (not "theory") for fighting. Flinching/flailing/blinking/overreacting to feints are handled in the process steps, explanations, drills and fights posted. Using yin, ting, na before entering striking range helps to avoid those symptoms. As I said, the process is simple, yet has depth. So, it may not be easy to understand without further study.
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