"Honest" Sparring

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:03 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Not "flowery words," fundamental words. Most people only see "the big guy hit the small guy," not the skill—without understanding, analysis and slow motion. The big guy (Julius Francis), former British heavyweight boxing champion) is age 57, 6' 2", relatively old and overweight. The younger, athletic guy appears 1"or 2" shorter.

Not a "style flex," either trained skills are present or not. Hit and don't get hit. Zhang Yun, "In order to be true Taiji skill (higher skill), the first four steps must be present."

Since this thread is about "honest sparring" and the ex pro boxer will have thousands of rounds over his career spent punching people in the head who didn't want him to, I'm going to score a win for boxings competitive sparring methods over his apparent mastery of the formless form and intimate knowledge of Taiji Fundamentals.

Right, I shared similar strategies, skills, drills and high level sparring. And, I gave an actual street encounter, as an example, in support of your sparring topic, after these opinions:
Bao wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I don't really know, honestly.
In my experience, live encounters do not resemble sparring so I don't know how useful it is.

Agree 100%.


Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:That the smaller guy dropped because he was blustering around hands down and chin-up so bad even an untrained the bigger man folds him up like a chair 9/10 times.
It's a stupid example of a street "fight" to prove your point - "Hit and don't get hit" only counts if they other guy is trying to hit you, regardless of provocation the bigger guy threw the only punch.

No. It is an attempt to prove your sparring point—skills developed in sparring can be used in a "live encounter." As the attacker approached with a raised hand, Julius legally stopped any threat. The five skills process linked is taught and used in top MMA sparring/fighting, as opposed to hit, kick, throw "I win that round" without considering getting countered. Not understanding if you have an attitude, since I was in support of and discussing your sparring topic.

Your "small guy:"

Image

marvin8 wrote:They are open to new training and concepts (yours?), whatever helps them become better MAists.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2675
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:05 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Not "flowery words," fundamental words. Most people only see "the big guy hit the small guy," not the skill—without understanding, analysis and slow motion. The big guy (Julius Francis), former British heavyweight boxing champion) is age 57, 6' 2", relatively old and overweight. The younger, athletic guy appears 1"or 2" shorter.

Not a "style flex," either trained skills are present or not. Hit and don't get hit. Zhang Yun, "In order to be true Taiji skill (higher skill), the first four steps must be present."


Since this thread is about "honest sparring" and the ex pro boxer will have thousands of rounds over his career spent punching people in the head who didn't want him to, I'm going to score a win for boxings competitive sparring methods over his apparent mastery of the formless form and intimate knowledge of Taiji Fundamentals.

That the smaller guy dropped because he was blustering around hands down and chin-up so bad even an untrained the bigger man folds him up like a chair 9/10 times.
It's a stupid example of a street "fight" to prove your point - "Hit and don't get hit" only counts if they other guy is trying to hit you, regardless of provocation the bigger guy threw the only punch.


Again what we're discussing is the fundamental differences between sparring and self defense situations. You are now saying that all you need to do is be bigger. So martial arts are useless. Tactics are useless. Hiding his hand to entice the aggressor into range is useless. You should wait for them to punch you, but it's impossible to do anything about a punch coming in.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
Join my discord, Pulling Silk
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 3101
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:21 pm

marvin8 wrote: Not understanding if you have an attitude.


I absolutely do. ;D

If anything what is going on here is a silly clash and confusion over the analysis of a video clip - It didn't feel relevant but I see your intent was earnest and my own aversion to this kind of analysis is what is showing.

origami_itto wrote:Again what we're discussing is the fundamental differences between sparring and self defense situations. You are now saying that all you need to do is be bigger. So martial arts are useless. Tactics are useless. Hiding his hand to entice the aggressor into range is useless. You should wait for them to punch you, but it's impossible to do anything about a punch coming in.


What I'm saying is that in THIS VIDEO, the winner was bigger and better trained. I don't see him hiding his hand and enticing anyone, I think that's like "finding meaning" in a poem - it can be whatever you want it to be, he hit the smaller guy and he dropped. I never said anything about waiting or responding being impossible, the plot got lost somewhere and HEY WHAT ABOUT SPARRING METHODS YOU PERSONALLY USE IN TRAINING. ???
Sea.Wolf.Forge
Mingjing
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:05 pm

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby origami_itto on Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:33 pm

As the line goes, tell me what you saw and I'll tell you what you missed.

It's a bit more of a telegraph than I like, really, but still flew under the aggressor's radar, and yours. He keeps his right hand down and pulled back a little as the aggresor approaches, you can read it the most in his shoulders.

Like I mentioned I don't spar much, it's not really relevant to what I'm doing now.

The question, I thought, was honest sparring.

Taijiquan is not an art of square off and box. We strive to take control of the opponent before first contact using technique no technique and form no form. It is subtle and deceitful. You develop these skills through a well fleshed push hands curriculum which includes joining from a distance.

And push hands skills in fighting are not about going back and forth. You should be able to touch, take control, and do as you wish.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
Join my discord, Pulling Silk
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 3101
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:40 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:If anything what is going on here is a silly clash and confusion over the analysis of a video clip - It didn't feel relevant but I see your intent was earnest and my own aversion to this kind of analysis is what is showing.

No clash or confusion on my part. While viewing frame by frame (Photoshop), I objectively listed the 5 skills process Julius used, with my understanding of "western fighting." The aggressor being similar in height, better shape and a boxer (per Ohara Davies) made it relevant enough IMO. A different approach could have made the fight longer and changed the outcome of the altercation. The relevance being the usefulness of "boxing's competitive sparring methods" in a "live encounter."

origami_itto wrote:As the line goes, tell me what you saw and I'll tell you what you missed.

It's a bit more of a telegraph than I like, really, but still flew under the aggressor's radar, and yours. He keeps his right hand down and pulled back a little as the aggresor approaches, you can read it the most in his shoulders.


1) Julius starts to move his left foot back, while outside of punching range. 2) Attacker continues to approach and extends his right arm. Julius' left foot is back with weight on front foot. 3) Julius hops bringing rear foot slightly forward, transferring his weight to the rear foot and lands his right check hook.

Note the hop, weight shift and rotation of shoulders and waist generate the power for the check hook. After landing the check hook, Julius steps back with front foot exiting punching range (defensive responsibility).

Image Image Image

origami_itto wrote:The question, I thought, was honest sparring.

Taijiquan is not an art of square off and box. We strive to take control of the opponent before first contact using technique no technique and form no form. It is subtle and deceitful. You develop these skills through a well fleshed push hands curriculum which includes joining from a distance.

And push hands skills in fighting are not about going back and forth. You should be able to touch, take control, and do as you wish.

Nor is "western fighting." You should lure opponent out of position and control. Then at first contact, issue (e.g., push, head control, strike, kick, grapple, etc.). Sparring helps to develop skills in luring, listening, control, neutralization, attack, distance, timing, rhythm, etc.
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2675
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby origami_itto on Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:08 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:The question, I thought, was honest sparring.

Taijiquan is not an art of square off and box. We strive to take control of the opponent before first contact using technique no technique and form no form. It is subtle and deceitful. You develop these skills through a well fleshed push hands curriculum which includes joining from a distance.

And push hands skills in fighting are not about going back and forth. You should be able to touch, take control, and do as you wish.

Nor is "western fighting." You should lure opponent out of position and control. Then at first contact, issue (e.g., push, head control, strike, kick, grapple, etc.). Sparring helps to develop skills in luring, listening, control, neutralization, attack, distance, timing, rhythm, etc.


I guess the main difference to me is that I'm not dancing in and out trying to land a strike. I'm not displaying aggression to tip the judges opinion in my favor. If I throw a punch, it should land, it should do damage. I should probably have them at least partially under control before I even throw the strike.

Like it isn't the timing and distance stuff, I do believe you can get that from Push hands, with meditative practice to keep your heart rate down and brain properly focused to boot.

The important things I believe are being able to attach smoothly to the opponent, read their intentions, interrupt their intentions, and take over their movement with your own intention. That requires specific skills and specific training. Form work, fixed step, moving step, patterns, da lu, san shou two person form, weapons work. It all combines to cultivate the specific skill set. So yes, when somebody throws a punch you can join with it, and that there is the first brain change. "You can't catch a punch" because they think a punch is a fist and forget the lines. I don't catch the fist in a punch I catch the forearm and elbow. The fist never gets close to the target because I spoil the trajectory by pushing the arm to the side BEHIND the fist.
At that point their pattern is interrupted, unless they've got a great deal of training I have a window of opportunity to take over and do whatever I want. Brow mopping, hip throw, standing arm bar control, knee to the back, kick to the knee, whatever. They're likely already off balance and can't think about anything anyhow.

And the main thing is, when I've gotten into "sparring" situations, it's so hard not to get into that western boxing mindset of hunting for targets past a guard and throwing many useless punches. Putting up one's dukes and getting in a little crouchy stance. It's almost pavlovian.

Going back to the security guard. Good tactics, but poor strategy. He won the legal battle, but he had to go through the legal battle.

If I were in his place, when I have been in his place, I would have grabbed the right arm and put him in a control hold belly down till we could get him in mechanical restraints or escort him to hand him off to law enforcement. Let them deal with lawsuits. If he proved to be more difficult than I could handle, then maybe we could escalate to striking if needed, but I would consider that a shameful failure on my part.

But if all you have is a sledge-o-matic every problem looks like a watermelon.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
Join my discord, Pulling Silk
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 3101
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:56 am

origami_itto wrote:I'm not displaying aggression to tip the judges opinion in my favor....

And the main thing is, when I've gotten into "sparring" situations, it's so hard not to get into that western boxing mindset of hunting for targets past a guard and throwing many useless punches. Putting up one's dukes and getting in a little crouchy stance. It's almost pavlovian.

Going back to the security guard. Good tactics, but poor strategy. He won the legal battle, but he had to go through the legal battle.

If I were in his place, when I have been in his place, I would have grabbed the right arm and put him in a control hold belly down till we could get him in mechanical restraints or escort him to hand him off to law enforcement. Let them deal with lawsuits. If he proved to be more difficult than I could handle, then maybe we could escalate to striking if needed, but I would consider that a shameful failure on my part.

But if all you have is a sledge-o-matic every problem looks like a watermelon
.

So which one is your fighting philosophy?

origami_itto wrote:I don't generally fight, but when I do, I don't believe in rules.

Fair fights are for suckers.

But that just speaks of the foolishness of adapting your art to fit some set of arbitrary sport rules. Train for the real world, you don't get a week of studying their films before fighting in a nice safe space with somebody there to protect you from getting killed if you fall down….

I train to deal with somebody with a much better lawyer who is out of control and trying to hurt me in a room full of innocent people and expensive shit while my daughters are watching….

That's why I say fair fights are for suckers. I will grab a stick or a knife and sic my dogs on your behind. I will push you into traffic or smash a beer glass in your face. I will get somebody else to take out your legs. I do not care about proving who's tougher or better, if I perceive a legitimate threat to my or my people's safety and can't handle it readily without harming anyone I will shut it down by whatever means necessary.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2675
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby origami_itto on Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:33 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I'm not displaying aggression to tip the judges opinion in my favor....

And the main thing is, when I've gotten into "sparring" situations, it's so hard not to get into that western boxing mindset of hunting for targets past a guard and throwing many useless punches. Putting up one's dukes and getting in a little crouchy stance. It's almost pavlovian.

Going back to the security guard. Good tactics, but poor strategy. He won the legal battle, but he had to go through the legal battle.

If I were in his place, when I have been in his place, I would have grabbed the right arm and put him in a control hold belly down till we could get him in mechanical restraints or escort him to hand him off to law enforcement. Let them deal with lawsuits. If he proved to be more difficult than I could handle, then maybe we could escalate to striking if needed, but I would consider that a shameful failure on my part.

But if all you have is a sledge-o-matic every problem looks like a watermelon
.

So which one is your fighting philosophy?

origami_itto wrote:I don't generally fight, but when I do, I don't believe in rules.

Fair fights are for suckers.

But that just speaks of the foolishness of adapting your art to fit some set of arbitrary sport rules. Train for the real world, you don't get a week of studying their films before fighting in a nice safe space with somebody there to protect you from getting killed if you fall down….

I train to deal with somebody with a much better lawyer who is out of control and trying to hurt me in a room full of innocent people and expensive shit while my daughters are watching….

That's why I say fair fights are for suckers. I will grab a stick or a knife and sic my dogs on your behind. I will push you into traffic or smash a beer glass in your face. I will get somebody else to take out your legs. I do not care about proving who's tougher or better, if I perceive a legitimate threat to my or my people's safety and can't handle it readily without harming anyone I will shut it down by whatever means necessary.


Both.

Shut it down by any means necessary, but actually having to hurt somebody is a relative failure, and you scale your response to the situation. You don't snap somebody's spine for scuffing your Nikes. The level of force deployed is determined by the level of the threat.

Roughly...
The highest art, in the face of conflict, you make a joke or comment that takes their mind out of it and prevents hands from ever crossing.
Next lowest is intimidation.
Next is to cross hands and subdue them without harming them.
Next would be to actually harm them.
Next would be to be harmed yourself.

You know, just off the top of my head this morning over coffee.

The red statements all point to the same ideas though.

Train for the real world martially AND civilly. If I can handle someone without touching them, that's best, if I have to touch them but am at a sufficiently high enough level of development to not harm them, good enough, if I have to go nuclear and hurt them, or use force enhancers to get the job done, then I'm behind the 8 ball and really should have done better.

The no fair fights rule goes hand in hand with another important concept. The other guy should find out you have a knife when it's sticking out of him. Hidden hands, hidden intent, the deadlier weapon standing ready till it's time to use it. In a fair fight we declare our intent and limitations and consent to an acceptable level of violence. In a self defense situation we only care about safety.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
Join my discord, Pulling Silk
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 3101
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:31 am

marvin8 wrote:Image Image Image


I get that we are on relatively the same side of this issue but see we are polar opposites when it comes to assessing the value of this clip. You say I'm not seeing what is there, I say it's a waste of time analyzing it frame by frame for intricate deceptions and strategy becuase if you ran the simulation 100 times over and you get 100 different outcomes and a solid 99 of which involve the smaller guy dropping like a rock to a bigger, more skilled individual that just improv'd it as needed. There is no way to prove either position and speculating isn't helpful.

origami_itto wrote:And the main thing is, when I've gotten into "sparring" situations, it's so hard not to get into that western boxing mindset of hunting for targets past a guard and throwing many useless punches. Putting up one's dukes and getting in a little crouchy stance. It's almost pavlovian.


This reads like someone who has done very little boxing/kickboxing sparring, that may not be the case but it sure sounds like the case. I don't remember many sessions where we drilled our "little crouchy stances" to better throw "many useless punches." ::)
Sea.Wolf.Forge
Mingjing
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:05 pm

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby origami_itto on Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:44 am

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Image Image Image


I get that we are on relatively the same side of this issue but see we are polar opposites when it comes to assessing the value of this clip. You say I'm not seeing what is there, I say it's a waste of time analyzing it frame by frame for intricate deceptions and strategy becuase if you ran the simulation 100 times over and you get 100 different outcomes and a solid 99 of which involve the smaller guy dropping like a rock to a bigger, more skilled individual that just improv'd it as needed. There is no way to prove either position and speculating isn't helpful.

origami_itto wrote:And the main thing is, when I've gotten into "sparring" situations, it's so hard not to get into that western boxing mindset of hunting for targets past a guard and throwing many useless punches. Putting up one's dukes and getting in a little crouchy stance. It's almost pavlovian.


This reads like someone who has done very little boxing/kickboxing sparring, that may not be the case but it sure sounds like the case. I don't remember many sessions where we drilled our "little crouchy stances" to better throw "many useless punches." ::)


Okay here's an example. Check the stats.

http://ufcstats.com/fight-details/6e559181bfbc77e1

Less than half of the punches thrown land.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
Die Pistole Macht Frei
Join my discord, Pulling Silk
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 3101
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:04 pm

At the end of the day, fighting skills are acquired through experiential learning, just like swimming, riding a bicycle, playing a musical instrument, etc. Physical skills don't magically manifest themselves from reading about how to do it, by watching others do it, or by arguing which method of doing it is best.

Whether we engage in sparring sessions at a class, compete in fighting venues, or simply fight regularly on the streets, it is the realtime experience of risking potential injuries and embarrassing defeats which eventually teaches us what actually works or doesn't work for us personally.

Those who aren't ready to rumble and take such risks should probably just sit down and STFU. Never let your mouth make promises that your body can't keep. Instant karma can definitely be a real bitch for those who foolishly run their mouths, while silence is nearly always golden.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5366
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:52 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:I get that we are on relatively the same side of this issue but see we are polar opposites when it comes to assessing the value of this clip. You say I'm not seeing what is there, I say it's a waste of time analyzing it frame by frame for intricate deceptions and strategy becuase if you ran the simulation 100 times over and you get 100 different outcomes and a solid 99 of which involve the smaller guy dropping like a rock to a bigger, more skilled individual that just improv'd it as needed. There is no way to prove either position and speculating isn't helpful.

We are only discussing one fight, not 99 other fantasy fights. We both agree Julius used boxing skills developed in boxing sparring, therefore sparring is useful.

However, we disagree on the relevance of the opponent. You just repeatedly exaggerate the size and ignore the difference in physical condition and age. The police and most people can see that this guy was a legitimate threat. The trio of clips were in reply to origami_itto's post, not yours. So, we can agree to disagree on the relevance of the opponent. Again,
marvin8 wrote:Your "small guy:"

Image

marvin8 wrote:The aggressor being similar in height, better shape and a boxer (per Ohara Davies) made it relevant enough IMO. A different approach could have made the fight longer and changed the outcome of the altercation.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2675
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:46 pm

origami_itto wrote:
Okay here's an example. Check the stats.

http://ufcstats.com/fight-details/6e559181bfbc77e1

Less than half of the punches thrown land.


Yes, when professional combat sports athletes know they are in a fight they tend to avoid being hit. If you think this means I paw the air when someone has no functional defense I've got a bridge to sell you, and maybe some new teeth. ::)
Sea.Wolf.Forge
Mingjing
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:05 pm

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:12 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:avoid being hit.

In wrestling, you try to prevent your opponent's hands from touching you. If you move both arms in circle in front of you, your opponent's punches can be intersected. This strategy can also be applied in striking art.

The original idea came from the Chinese spear technique. A spear stab can be deflected by a spear circle. A straight punch can be knocked down by a circular punch.

Image

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9849
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:13 pm

I have only seen it on a couple of occasions
Someone with no training never been in a fight before pushed to the edge
They explode with pent up anger and destroy their attacker
It dosent happen often but does happen
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4486
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests