"Honest" Sparring

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:23 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Not "flowery words," fundamental words. Most people only see "the big guy hit the small guy," not the skill—without understanding, analysis and slow motion. The big guy (Julius Francis), former British heavyweight boxing champion) is age 57, 6' 2", relatively old and overweight. The younger, athletic guy appears 1"or 2" shorter.

Not a "style flex," either trained skills are present or not. Hit and don't get hit. Zhang Yun, "In order to be true Taiji skill (higher skill), the first four steps must be present."

That the smaller guy dropped because he was blustering around hands down and chin-up so bad even an untrained the bigger man folds him up like a chair 9/10 times.
It's a stupid example of a street "fight" to prove your point - "Hit and don't get hit" only counts if they other guy is trying to hit you, regardless of provocation the bigger guy threw the only punch.

Per Zhang Yun, George Hickman and Guo Shilei, the smaller guy dropped because he only issued (fa)—threatened by raising his hand. While, Julius used similar higher level skill and the "core essence" of CMA in the street fight.

The same occurs here. The tai chi guy only attempts to bridge (issue/fa). While, the MMAist lures, intercepts his movement and KOs him using similar skills to Zhang's five skills process.

Similar to what Julius did, Duane Ludwig teaches "Drawing in Opponent and Timing Their Step," but with right cross and left hook:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7PLpAuPNGw
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:32 pm

origami_itto wrote:Oh I'm clueless and I'll tell that to anyone who will listen.


About fighting? Probably not.
About boxing/kickboxing/mma methods and statistics? A bit maybe, yeah.

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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:36 pm

johnwang wrote:In wrestling, you try to prevent your opponent's hands from touching you. If you move both arms in circle in front of you, your opponent's punches can be intersected. This strategy can also be applied in striking art.

The original idea came from the Chinese spear technique. A spear stab can be deflected by a spear circle. A straight punch can be knocked down by a circular punch.


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This is very similar method of establishing connection as the spinning hands drill I learned from Bagua. One of my current sparring partners comes from a karate-heavy background and throws straight punches almost exclusively so this kind of thing comes up a lot, especially as gloves get smaller and throwing techniques become more available.
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:07 pm

Sea.Wolf.Forge wrote:
origami_itto wrote:Oh I'm clueless and I'll tell that to anyone who will listen.


About fighting? Probably not.
About boxing/kickboxing/mma methods and statistics? A bit maybe, yeah.

Image


Honestly, don't even know that, just been in a scrap or two and love to run my mouth.

Again I will not ever say that mma and boxing style sparring won't make you a more effective fighter. It's fun and you do get a lot out of it. I spent I don't know how many hours growing up boxing in the backyard. One friend of mine had a big brother that was an amateur welterweight and he would put us through fundamentals and drills and supervised sparring. I was probably ten maybe when we first started strapping up.

Big boxing fan growing up in the heyday of Tyson.

Now I'm trying to learn about not fighting and seeking peace.
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby Sea.Wolf.Forge on Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:47 pm

origami_itto wrote:Again I will not ever say that mma and boxing style sparring won't make you a more effective fighter. It's fun and you do get a lot out of it. I spent I don't know how many hours growing up boxing in the backyard. One friend of mine had a big brother that was an amateur welterweight and he would put us through fundamentals and drills and supervised sparring. I was probably ten maybe when we first started strapping up.

Big boxing fan growing up in the heyday of Tyson.


All fair - but being a fan of Tyson and boxing in the backyard as a child isn't the same thing as training to compete as an adult and a fella oughta be fuckin' aware of it. I stand firmly by my bridge/teeth comment - there is no one better qualified to put a decisive and unfriendly hand in someones face than a good boxer.

Training in my mid-20s when I was already a sparring partner for national level amateurs in boxing and muay thai - I sparred an ex-pro who was 10 years older, at least 30lbs overweight (probably 50lbs heavier than me), shorter, (173cm to my 188) and with a shorter reach - The only reason I hit him was because he got bored maintaining range and he liked making me barely miss so I'd keep trying, he hit me with whatever and whenever the fuck he wanted. I never made it to a bell he didn't let me get to and I still walked away with a black eye and a 3-day headache.
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby cloudz on Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:12 am

Bao wrote:
origami_itto wrote: But that clip illustrates exactly what I'm talking about.

No aggression displaying to cause them to be more gaurded, he basically presents a honeypot and the only thing he has to think about is the cross when dude is in range.


“Hiding intent.”

“From nothing to something. Something from nothing”

Old basic Tai Chi fighting principles.

Li Yaxuan:
Taijiquan is a skill with shape and without shape. Although it has shape when an opponent attacks you, your whole body must be very reserved and display nearly nothing in there. This will make the opponent catch an empty shadow so to speak and, thus, not harm you. If the enemy thinks you are empty and, on the other hand, if you show your emptiness but can suddenly attack like thunder, thunder so quick and strong that people must duck and cover their ears, so as to make them totally scared, scared for their life, then this is enticing into emptiness. Taijiquan is a skill based on unpredictable opportunity. If the other thinks you cannot attack, you should just move your mind suddenly to attack. If others think you will come then you should transform as if you have nothing to attack. This is the so-called "being suddenly visible; suddenly invisible".

https://www.qi-journal.com/taijiquan/ta ... skill-form


wow.. absolutely LOVE that quote. so bang on it's ridiculous. I based my avatar on it, from a description in Alex Kozma books; using the metaphor of thunder lightning emerging from the clouds.. not forgetting cloud hands lol

this is part of why I still love tai chi, it's so poetic and full of romance !
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby yeniseri on Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:01 am

Though I have nothing to do with "honest sparring", it is an updated version of what may be ternmed shadow boxing with an "opponent". The real test is how to deal with the US 'Merican beatdown, where anything goes depending on one's street sense (or lack thereof) ability to adapt and good old conditioning. The beatdown should be the entry point of real training and how to adapt, deter and slam your opponent to the middle of the earth knowing he satrted the encounter

Honestr sparring has a value but whether it meets the goals and approaches of modern training is a differnt matter. For boxing, it is a great starting point.
Self defense should always be the modus operandi of responding to an unprovoked attack. Just clarifying a scenario!
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:26 pm

yeniseri wrote:Though I have nothing to do with "honest sparring", it is an updated version of what may be ternmed shadow boxing with an "opponent". The real test is how to deal with the US 'Merican beatdown, where anything goes depending on one's street sense (or lack thereof) ability to adapt and good old conditioning. The beatdown should be the entry point of real training and how to adapt, deter and slam your opponent to the middle of the earth knowing he satrted the encounter

Honestr sparring has a value but whether it meets the goals and approaches of modern training is a differnt matter. For boxing, it is a great starting point.
Self defense should always be the modus operandi of responding to an unprovoked attack. Just clarifying a scenario!

What skills should be developed and trained for a street fight? Rather than sparring with a resistant opponent, what type of "real training" is better for unprovoked street attacks?

marvin8 wrote:Rather, MMA uses "CMA" concepts and strategies similar to Zhang Yun (tai chi) and Guo Shilei (bagua)....

The same occurs here. The tai chi guy only attempts to bridge (issue/fa). While, the MMAist lures, intercepts his movement and KOs him using similar skills to Zhang's five skills process....

Sparring helps to develop skills in luring, listening, control, neutralization, attack, distance, timing, positioning, rhythm, etc.
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:29 am

Image

While training in Wing Chun under Grandmaster Chan, Sifu Ken also briefly studied other martial art systems in an effort to compare the effectiveness of Wing Chun against other arts. The other systems he studied include tae kwon do, kenpo, Western boxing, judo, escrima, and arnis. Sifu Ken always found that the Wing Chun system as taught by Grandmaster Chan was the most logical and effective for achieving his objective of learning how to truly defend himself in real life street fighting.

During his many years of training, he regularly tested his skills in Grandmaster Chan’s private 6-foot circle fighting matches.

It was in this confined arena that Sifu Ken would prove whether his skills would be effective enough to survive real life street situations. The many opponents he would compete against were his many classmates who were very experienced in winning actual street fights.

Yes, there were many scratches, cuts, bruises, bloody lips and black-eyes he would proudly receive after late night private group workouts.

This was the most valuable self-defense training that any student could ask for – training with Grandmaster Chan (who is an accomplished Hong Kong street fighter) and the many experienced street fighters in his class.

https://www.wingchundynamics.com/sifu-ken-chun

In the 70s many of the local gung fu gyms of the day noted for "fighting" also attempted to field fighters in the local full contact venues...most of them having to
modify what they did due to rule sets at the time....very different from todays venues..
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby yeniseri on Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:52 am

marvin8 wrote:
yeniseri wrote:Though I have nothing to do with "honest sparring", it is an updated version of what may be ternmed shadow boxing with an "opponent". The real test is how to deal with the US 'Merican beatdown, where anything goes depending on one's street sense (or lack thereof) ability to adapt and good old conditioning. The beatdown should be the entry point of real training and how to adapt, deter and slam your opponent to the middle of the earth knowing he satrted the encounter

Honestr sparring has a value but whether it meets the goals and approaches of modern training is a differnt matter. For boxing, it is a great starting point.
Self defense should always be the modus operandi of responding to an unprovoked attack. Just clarifying a scenario!

What skills should be developed and trained for a street fight? Rather than sparring with a resistant opponent, what type of "real training" is better for unprovoked street attacks?

marvin8 wrote:Rather, MMA uses "CMA" concepts and strategies similar to Zhang Yun (tai chi) and Guo Shilei (bagua)....

The same occurs here. The tai chi guy only attempts to bridge (issue/fa). While, the MMAist lures, intercepts his movement and KOs him using similar skills to Zhang's five skills process....

Sparring helps to develop skills in luring, listening, control, neutralization, attack, distance, timing, positioning, rhythm, etc.


There is no one way to accomplish this but when I trained fellow force protection personnel I often emphasized concepts such as physical conditioning and the oft repeated 'situational awareness dynamic.
Sparring, in itself is not a bad thing, It is one part of a whole and my emphasis was that it also depends of the abilities of the individual. Some people are good at "boxing", others at wrestling, others can learn and incorporate those "techniques that are best suited to their abilities. Physical conditioning implies thta one has the cardiovascular, some level of fitness and strength to run, hide, and feint enough to get away from a situation and situational awareness would teach you to not go throught the ally as a ahort cut, ot keep to the pubnlic roadways, pavement, etc or certain physical mannerism alerting you that someone is going to cause mayhem of some kind.

I was non the train going somewhere with a friend (a while ago) and the individual came through the door, looked around then continued to the opposite the door then turned around as if to open his coat but then he shifted his hands as if to go through the door again but he turned around and then opened his coat to show the people the watches and other stuff he had for sale! Most people just don't pay attention so it is easy to beatdown the clueless, or sucker punch the vulnerable hence the physical conditioning as part of what we call self defense. Even trained individuals can get hurt since I recall an incident about a BJJ fellow who ran after a thief but was killed in that encounter!
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:16 am

Fender-bender hit-run turns fatal in S.F. / Kickbox champ chases down driver, winds up shot to death


A world champion Thai-style kickboxer was shot to death in the middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier.

Alex Gong, 30, was pronounced dead at the scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street. Witnesses said he was shot at point-blank range when he confronted the driver, who apparently waited for a traffic signal to turn green before opening fire and speeding away.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Fen ... 598674.php





Visited his gym,,Talked to him before his death

World champion, did a lot of sparring was known as a fighter
did his "training" help or prevent him from taking the correct action ? :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:56 am

yeniseri wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
yeniseri wrote:Though I have nothing to do with "honest sparring", it is an updated version of what may be ternmed shadow boxing with an "opponent". The real test is how to deal with the US 'Merican beatdown, where anything goes depending on one's street sense (or lack thereof) ability to adapt and good old conditioning. The beatdown should be the entry point of real training and how to adapt, deter and slam your opponent to the middle of the earth knowing he satrted the encounter

Honestr sparring has a value but whether it meets the goals and approaches of modern training is a differnt matter. For boxing, it is a great starting point.
Self defense should always be the modus operandi of responding to an unprovoked attack. Just clarifying a scenario!

What skills should be developed and trained for a street fight? Rather than sparring with a resistant opponent, what type of "real training" is better for unprovoked street attacks?

marvin8 wrote:Rather, MMA uses "CMA" concepts and strategies similar to Zhang Yun (tai chi) and Guo Shilei (bagua)....

The same occurs here. The tai chi guy only attempts to bridge (issue/fa). While, the MMAist lures, intercepts his movement and KOs him using similar skills to Zhang's five skills process....

Sparring helps to develop skills in luring, listening, control, neutralization, attack, distance, timing, positioning, rhythm, etc.


There is no one way to accomplish this but when I trained fellow force protection personnel I often emphasized concepts such as physical conditioning and the oft repeated 'situational awareness dynamic.

Sparring, in itself is not a bad thing, It is one part of a whole and my emphasis was that it also depends of the abilities of the individual. Some people are good at "boxing", others at wrestling, others can learn and incorporate those "techniques that are best suited to their abilities. Physical conditioning implies thta one has the cardiovascular, some level of fitness and strength to run, hide, and feint enough to get away from a situation and situational awareness would teach you to not go throught the ally as a ahort cut, ot keep to the pubnlic roadways, pavement, etc or certain physical mannerism alerting you that someone is going to cause mayhem of some kind.

However, one may still be "unprovokedly attacked" even though situational aware. Physical conditioning is more of an attribute than a skill, although important depending on how long a fight lasts.

Once attacked (when you have to use your MA), rather than sparring with a resistant opponent, what type of "real training" is better for "unprovoked" street attacks? What skills should be developed in order to "slam your opponent to the middle of the earth knowing he started the encounter?"
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Re: "Honest" Sparring

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:01 am

marvin8 wrote:Former boxer: 1. Stands with his hands down (yin) as attacker approaches 2. listens (ting) for opponent to double weight 3. steps back (na), shifting weight to the back foot (hua), while issuing (fa) right check hooks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePiAqqWOT7w&t=1m1s

Similar sequence at last night's UFC 276. Alex Pereira KOs Sean Strickland:

1. Alex steps left with front foot and circle steps back with right leg, leading (yin) Sean to step forward 2. Alex listens (ting) for Sean to right downward parry and lift front leg (double weight) 3. Alex level changes (na), then shifts weight to the back foot (hua), while issuing (fa) left check hook, before Sean plants his front foot:

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