Form without form, intention without intention

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Form without form, intention without intention

Postby Yeung on Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:26 am

"Form without form, intention without intention, no intention is the real intention
(形无形,意无意,无意之中是真意 Xíng wúxíng, yì wúyì, wúyì zhī zhōng shì zhēnyì)" is a well known idiom in Chinese martial art. Any interpretation on it and what is the real intention in martial arts?
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:39 am

Mind no mind
Boxing no boxing
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby cloudz on Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:09 am

yea great
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby Ad_B on Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:09 pm

Yeung wrote:"Form without form, intention without intention, no intention is the real intention
(形无形,意无意,无意之中是真意 Xíng wúxíng, yì wúyì, wúyì zhī zhōng shì zhēnyì)" is a well known idiom in Chinese martial art. Any interpretation on it and what is the real intention in martial arts?


I took it to mean that the architecture and movement of the form is so well trained and embedded that it's become intrinsic to the person and therefore is no longer an external 'thing' but is now internalised and the persons 'new' natural architecture and movement 'is' the form and the same with intention in that by hard-wiring whatever needed intention into yourself, you no longer need to intend anything since the 'intended thing' is now just part of who you naturally are now?
Last edited by Ad_B on Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby wiesiek on Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:24 am

It is basic Zen application in MA.
They just speak "enigmatic", to make simple thing mysterious.
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:30 am

Or they tell the truth based on years of correct training
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby Yeung on Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:59 pm

Bruce Lee: "Using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation”.
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby Yeung on Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:00 pm

Bruce Lee: "Using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation”.
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby Yeung on Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:02 pm

From "Yi Quan Lun" By Wang Xiangzhai

On the Philosophical Basis of Yiquan As for the philosophical basis
of Yiquan, I don’t want to use more pen and ink, but only put forward in the form of philosophical propositions, comparing with each other, it is not difficult to see the true face of Yiquan.
1. Zhuangzi said that "things are not things." It means that even if matter becomes matter, it is not matter. Yiquan advocates that all power is a collection of spirits. It can also be said that the force is not the force. In other words, what makes power a power is not power, but the spirit and the mind. This is the essence of Yiquan so it is called Yiquan.
2. Lao Tzu said: "Do nothing without doing nothing." Yiquan advocates that "doing is also doing nothing", and "movement that does not move is the movement that regenerates." The so-called "wuwei" and "non-moving" Yiquan are piling gong, and the so-called "youwei" and "moving" are trial and exert force. Yiquan attaches great importance to pile power, so it is also the meaning of "doing nothing". In the past, some people donated Yiquan as "ancient Taoism's static power", which is not a derogatory term.
Third, Lao Tzu said "the movement of the anti-Tao". Yiquan advocates that "there are two forces, and two can make one", that is, the unity of opposites between force and reaction. The so-called "contradictions must be unified."
The four Buddhist Zen sects say: "All dharmas are empty, that is the reality", and they say: "If you don't think about good, don't think about evil, I will return the face of my parents when they were not born." The face of my parents when they were not born is "emptiness" Ye, nothing”. Yiquan advocates that "all powers are produced by the expansion of Hunyuan's empty oil and selflessness." Therefore, it teaches people to "see the emptiness for practicality and use it in the emptiness."
Fifth, Zen also said: "There is no way to be without attachment." Yiquan also advocates that "one law does not stand, and there is no attachment to break the attachment." In combat, "I have neither the command nor the opponent." Not only is the use of resistance force to be obsessive, but also the use of tricks is obsessive. To break the attachment with non-attachment, break attachment without attachment.
6. Ming scholar Wang Shouren put forward the theory of "to conscience", while Yiquan advocates the theory of "playing innate ability". Wang Shouren said: "If the water is running wet, the fire will be dry."
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby Quigga on Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:40 pm

I like it :-)
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:03 pm

Yeung wrote:"Form without form, intention without intention, no intention is the real intention
(形无形,意无意,无意之中是真意 Xíng wúxíng, yì wúyì, wúyì zhī zhōng shì zhēnyì)" is a well known idiom in Chinese martial art.
Any interpretation on it and what is the real intention in martial arts?



""Form without form"

Conditional, unconditional, "Freedom"



what is the real intention in martial arts?


acceptance of ones death
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby jimmy on Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:02 pm


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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby origami_itto on Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:03 am

You can't tell my medicine by looking at my gourd.
I'm not attached to ideas.
I'm not locked into outcomes.
Last edited by origami_itto on Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:53 am

origami_itto wrote:I'm not attached to ideas. I'm not locked into outcomes.

Sounds good, but your own comments on numerous thread topics repeatedly reveal that you don't really believe that, though. As long as you study and train with the intention of achieving specific goals or acquiring specific skills, regardless of what these may be, you are attached to the associated mental visualizations and physical efforts leading towards those outcomes.

Thereafter, upon successful completion of same, it is certainly possible to employ the results of the process with a passively neutral, unthinking state of mind, but not until then.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Form without form, intention without intention

Postby origami_itto on Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:28 am

Doc Stier wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I'm not attached to ideas. I'm not locked into outcomes.

Sounds good, but your own comments on numerous thread topics repeatedly reveal that you don't really believe that, though. As long as you study and train with the intention of achieving specific goals or acquiring specific skills, regardless of what these may be, you are attached to the associated mental visualizations and physical efforts leading towards those outcomes.

Thereafter, upon successful completion of same, it is certainly possible to employ the results of the process with a passively neutral, unthinking state of mind, but not until then.

Well you know, looking to lose something new every day. :D
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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