Form without form, intention without intention

[windwalker]

He talks about "Form without form, intention without intention".

This may work on 1 point contact. For multiple points contact such as the "PM waist chop", your

- left hand has to control on your opponent's left wrist.
- right hand has to push on his waist.
- left leg has to hook on his right leading leg.

If you miss any of these contact points, your technique won't work well.

Sorry John,,,.


Doesn't work like that,,,,
which as mentioned I found out long ago...in Mr Lai's group...

Doesn't require the type of contact points....as you mentioned....


It does require the ability to

stick, adhere, join, and follow...

the real question is to stick, adhere, ect to "what"


Teacher Wang, was known for his exploits.
If you feel it wouldn't work, ok,,,it wouldn't work...point being ?

It's different,,,not anything to argue about,,,,
nor am I inclined to trying to explain it...pointless.

Every one has their own experiences
just sharing a little of mine....

Like your work btw,,,

its a different skill set...

[Doc Stier]

Grappling and wrestling arts like shuaijiao and jiujitsu definitely develop and employ a different skill set than the attach, adhere/stick, join and follow skills of TCC do, but both use points of contact in the effective application of their respective techniques. Apples and oranges!

[cloudz]

i think with any stand up grappling/ wrestling, people understand borrowing, following, sticking and that type of skillset.
taiji just breaks it down into smaller parts and insists on the passive/ countering approach this skillset supports. That can be useful as can the breaking down into smaller parts.

in the end how different can it (a technique )really be - I don't mean the training but the end result. The more you train (the technique) the better and more refined it will be - you will become. Taiji has similar techniques to chinese wrestling.

As for the jedi mind talk.. well, there's a limit in play when physical forces are on the table.
No one has demonstrated how that utility and effectiveness in "reality" transfers. So for all intents and purposes people can say anything about how something works and never have to prove themselves - their words.

This is just a circular discussion with no end.

[cloudz]

and you know this how....

I was specifically referncing the clip you posted that myself and another poster (hot soup) thought the reaction very over the top.
who is that guy?
People like Wang Peisheng and Ma or Yang Sau Cheung are a different story in my opinion, they are well known and respected heads of family lineage systems.

And it's not about what I know - it's about having an informed opinion. Did you train with that specific guy and even if you did, people can still question what they are seeing.

might try to understand why they react like that....

I very much so try to understand, and I have my ideas about that which I will share shortly.

In Chinese it is said there are mountains behind the mountains

Many things may be said, but it's what they mean specifically that matter, and whether something claimed is true.

Haha,,,

It was never was my intention to come of as commercially motivated...

Not you, the people putting these clips in the public domain. Are they doing it to attract students, ones that are interested in - jedi type martial skills?
I imagine that they may be.

In fact it totally opposite just as it was with my teacher.... I work with people for free although in some ways it's not free...

Right, you and your teacher..

I recall very well that Tom (admin on RSF) recounted how he met and encountered your teacher. I assume he met you and perhaps others here have met you. No one has vouched that you can do this to them against their will. Tom said your teacher didn't do anything out of the ordinary at all with him.

My teacher while living knew some of the teachers mentioned that I post clips of, and many of the famous teacher of his time.
His skill sets reflected theirs....his in some cases higher, could be my own bias showing

Beliefs are a very powerful thing, they change peoples reality.

I must admit at sometimes being taken aback, by comments made about famous masters I post illustrating the skill sets,
some that I know some of their students.. These are guys are pretty real,,,people come to practice with because of it.

Just find it off putting...the lack of respect...

I think you need to respect other peoples opinions and experience, and stop expecting people to believe in magic powers, just because you believe they would work against other martial artists who don't want them to.

I'm going to stop quoting you there, and speak freely..
The problem is you seem to be really incapable of differentiating between yours and other peoples value systems, respect has to be mutual; expecting us all to value - in the same way - the soft skills you train and like to see demonstrated - sometimes to absurd effects, is the wrong approach to insist on. You should learn to respect that people might put them in a different perspective where martial arts are concerned. It's QUAN. Or at least supposed to be.

Instead you whine on and on about it, recounting stories that are neither here nor there..

You used to hold up the New York Yang style tai chi teacher as an example of the silly reactions that we should all somehow test. Go see him, almost like challenging people to prove something to themselves and to test him.. You didn't even know the guy.

It so happened he was in the UK and Rob P trained with him, crossed hands and reported back here. Again just like with your teacher.. Nothing out the ordinary. Nothing beyond the experience most of us are already familiar with and recognise just fine.

If someone could replicate these skills in a testing environment, it would have happened by now and been captured at least once in my opinion.. But instead of that, there are multiple instances where people failed miserably trying to replicate either empty force or subtle or not so subtle contact skills. One was posted here by Marvin wasn't it.

For my part I believe in and practice esoteric things and hold an esoteric worldview, I just don't believe they are that useful for overcoming physical reality in martial arts. They may augment someones physical skills, training in esoteric methods may provide a higher accessibility and sensitivity to mental and energetic subtle forces.

I have felt these things, but when I have they have been inadequate - BY THEMSELVES.

I also believe that beliefs create a subjective reality and shared beliefs a shared reality. So when likeminded people train in such things and train softly - they can easily begin to delude themselves and overstate what they believe to be true - and project and impose that on the objective world. That is the big mistake!

By that I mean that we are subject to a shared objective physical reality whether we like it or not.. Everyone has a mind and a will. peoples Subjective reality cannot break or impede or invalidate, or overcome someone with a strong mind and will who remains in the bounds of objective physical reality..

That is why, we see so many of these guys fail when faced with an outsider, not sharing in the subjective experience. It is not that it is wholly untrue what they feel or experience it is just that they fail to realise how they have gone into their own world mentally speaking, a reality of their own making in a way.

That's my opinion and until someone like you can effect me with jedi skills alone against my will I will hold to it. It's not that I am closed off to these things - I just can't allow myself to believe whatever someone says can work or how it works on their say so alone.

[windwalker]

I recall very well that Tom (admin on RSF) recounted how he met and encountered your teacher. I assume he met you and perhaps others here have met you. No one has vouched that you can do this to them against their will. Tom said your teacher didn't do anything out of the ordinary at all with him.

Quite right,,,and in meeting people I always ask them to keep the meeting privet...

As it is a meeting between us, not us and the "net"

Tom

He had fun, good understanding of the work. Actually he was affected just not something he noted at the time...

I think you need to respect other peoples opinions and experience, and stop expecting people to believe in magic powers, just because you believe they would work against other martial artists who don't want them to.

haha,,,you might wanna think on that....

I share my experience, "first person" something that most commenting on don't seem to have...
Often those meeting with my teacher and others had many, many yrs of experience in other arts..Mistake to think not.


Do find it strange as in the recent clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5rpP2qIRI0

Had "Adam" failed most would accept it as what would be expected.
It would confirm "their" view

...Not failing "it tends to challenge it"

most here go on, and on about why it was staged and the motivations behind those that participated.

Isn't that always the case ?



As I've said it's not a belief, it's a reality for me and others...nor are they "magic powers" they are the things that many here have written about, as always when shown "what" they've written about tend to lose their minds seeing it in use find it funny...

also believe that beliefs create a subjective reality and shared beliefs a shared reality. So when likeminded people train in such things and train softly - they can easily begin to delude themselves and overstate what they believe to be true - and project and impose that on the objective world. That is the big mistake!

By that I mean that we are subject to a shared objective physical reality whether we like it or not.. Everyone has a mind and a will. peoples Subjective reality cannot break or impede or invalidate, or overcome someone with a strong mind and will who remains in the bounds of objective physical reality..

That is why, we see so many of these guys fail when faced with an outsider, not sharing in the subjective experience. It is not that it is wholly untrue what they feel or experience it is just that they fail to realise how they have gone into their own world mentally speaking, a reality of their own making in a way.

That's my opinion and until someone like you can effect me with jedi skills alone against my will I will hold to it. It's not that I am closed off to these things - I just can't allow myself to believe whatever someone says can work or how it works on their say so alone.

Quite an interesting view point...

Can you point to anyone in CMA who uses CMA that is recognizable as such in any of the competitive venues in this day and age. In most instances people read about past Masters who competed in open venues demonstrating their art...and use this as in indicator to validate their practice.


In the 70s most people noted that CMA didn't work in the ring

and yet people still go to practice and train....maybe your on to something with the world view thing...

At any rate...its not up to others to prove any thing,,,,it is for those really interested to either prove or disprove for themselves

lots of writers here,,,and those judging others while not showing work of their own...

You one of the few exceptions, kudos

[johnwang]

Doesn't require the type of contact points....as you mentioned....

It does require the ability to

stick, adhere, join, and follow...

the real question is to stick, adhere, ect to "what"

Here is an examples of stick, adhere, join, and follow.

- Your opponent spin his body. You spin with him (stick, yield, follow, join).
- You use right hand to push his neck to make him to spin faster than he wants to (contact point 1).
- You use left arm to pull his waist to make him to spin faster than he wants to (contact point 2).
- You use left leg to hook his left leg to cause him to lose balance (contact point 3).

Again, if any of those 3 contact points are missing, the result won't be the same.

Please tell me, how can "Form without form, intention without intention" be applied in this example.



It's not just a demo skill. It's a combat skill and all students have to train.

[Quigga]

Essentially, Tai Chi tries to intentionally develop what top tier athletes develop via intuition. There are some students who get stuff faster than others. Who learn easier, have better timing, more coordination. Tai Chi wants to develop ability to perform itself - not necessarily individual techniques or routines. Not that there's something wrong with that, far from it.

How it could be applied in this example? He could have tried setting up the throw instead of just going for it. I get that it's a drill to develop the ability to counter throws, but voluntarily exposing your back from the get go is rarely a good idea.

Besides that, I really like the clip and don't know if I would fare well in any type of martial encounter .

[everything]

tai chi seems to help average athletes like myself have some "athleticism", but what top athletes have is on another level. just playing with ex semi-pros can be jaw dropping to me. but then even those sports champions (like werdum or machida) can find tai chi has something totally different and not really explainable. that doesn't mean a person skilled at that tai chi can do those sports well. otoh on some occasions, an average athlete can do something well like that those pros can. it just doesn't happen often or with consistency. we can get a taste of what it feels like. the tai chi stuff is much harder to understand imo. hard to imagine what happens if one person has both kinds of skills and talent. that's how you probably get a Yang Luchan type.

[cloudz]

In the end, long-term training goals are important and Windwalker makes good points about training for the sake of training and not criticizing stuff that you can't do or don't want to do.

That's ok, and I have made the same points in the past too. different goals is fine. But we have to discern what is subjective to us and what is objective in terms of martial arts. Then we need to be careful how we engage these things in public forums - just as we might in a physical public space.

On the other hand, in taiji some of those long-term goals have little relevance to fighting or self-defense and will seem silly to those who haven't experienced sensitivity training in this way or don't see the point of it.

right; and I just like to add,I speak as someone who has spent significant time in drills addressing specific skills and force generation that are far removed from sparring drills / fighting. Subtle skills, as well as subtle force. Not to mention the many hourse spent in esoteric training; mental and energetic.

Just to be clear. It's not, never has been and never should be a case of one or the other. People that forget this, for me pose the main 'problem' when it comes to discourse. Which, at the end of the day - that's what this is; what we are engaging in here. People can go off and do whatever they like at the end of the day - who cares ?

I can do some of things that have been shown in various videos and when I demonstrated to groups of beginners in the past; it was obvious they thought the skills "special" or mysterious... even when I showed them how it was done from a more boring, physical point of view. Maybe the ancient Greek philosopher, Demosthenes, was right when he wrote: ""A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." Who doesn't like the thought of a little magic in our lives?

right I've done some pretty cool stuff too, including in non complaint drills - but they were artificial non compliant drills some were free pushing, some were more like that wall type stuff. I have felt empty force and I have made people sway back and forth with empty force in time with my movements when they could not see me.

Magic - the only true magic is that we are living and breathing, that existence is. This is the only miracle that really means anything..

With my own students, I only taught them the skills I can do to show them how easily they could be defeated by someone who wasn't compliant or "played by the rules". Such skills are small but interesting parts of the taiji whole in self-defense terms and only work when part of a comprehensive package of martial skills and experience.

could not agree more.

In the end, I still teach my few remaining training partners to be 'sensitive' in the ways I know about because it can be fun, plus I'm an old fart and can't take being kicked, punched or thrown the way I could even 20 years ago.

Nothing wrong with that at all. But as a coach, if you teach younger people, you would be encouraging and teaching them to engage in a more physical and realistic manner i hope. Rather than just say letting them only partake at your physical levels, whatever they happen to be at the time.

That's what a good coach should do.

Maybe that's why so many older teachers focus on such material?

Well yes that's obvious, but it isn't good coaching or teaching, if that is the case.
Don't just focus on what you want if you are teaching/ coaching; same same.

with out meaning to sound rude or disrespectful.. if that's the plan, maybe better to start an old mens club and have your fun. rather than teach a realistic and effective as well as highly skilful and powerful martial art to anyone who wants to learn one - young and old alike.

[yeniseri]

Actually, this is an excellent level of paradigm on the matter of form and intention!
Dancing is dancing (objective assessment ) at the level of seeing that the group of people are dancing but there are "subtle" element that is showing us there is neurological coordination, hand eye integration, cognitive elements, etc that is bettering the health status of those doing the activity without feeling they are working. This helps the cerebral cortex in accepting a value (participant is not even aware of that level of 'interaction' that allows for better aging though there may be some type of chronic illness present.
In order to cross left leg over right, (front or rear), one needs the hand eye coordination (at some leel) along with a distinction of cognitive recognition that assists the task although some may do it faster than others, or slower and that is fine.

I am guessing that this takes place in a nursing home, senior living facility, etc where the group qi of socialization, task acquistion or learning helps what we may can neuronal plasticity when the malleable brain/mind keeps itself occupied in purposeful activity while having fun. NOTE: I used to work in a nursing home facility as one of my first jobs (Activity Therapist) after leaving the military After that I, worked as a Recreation Assistant (Temporary) at a VA Medical Centre and that was part of the therapy (line dancing of many kinds) for the older patients based on mobility level. I remember one of the Activities personnel designed a dance for the Polish patients (group dance) as a welcoming gesture in sharing the varieties of movement despite cultural differences.