The Art of Neutralisation in Taijiquan: Bing 掤

[Yeung]

The standard technique to resist an armbar is to rotate the arm inward rather than contract concentrically. Just came across the following trick for kids:

[cloudz]

I think you have to try both striking methods and workout the differences. From observation it is difficult, as electromyographs do not tell the differences. My suggestion is to see whether there are the recoil effects and carry on with another technique like a grab and pull after a high intensity strike.

Consider that pulling and pushing correlate with eccentric and concentric muscle actions. I would only go so far as to say depending on whether we are closing or opening the primary strength utilised can be characterised this way but there is still the opposing action that supports whereby it feeds in Control.. Edit. I notice that you're describing this as 'braking'..

However the mechanism for this control is the opposing contraction!
You just can't deviate away from both eccentric and concentric actions being cycled through constantly.

Both phases are engaged and involved regardless of whether it is a pulling or pushing motion. Bicep and tricep is the prime example we can use or the front/ back of thigh. same same.

When the bicep contracts the tricep lengthens.. when the triceps contract the bicep lengthens, so on and so forth.
The bicep is concentric in pulling and the tricep is concentric in pushing. And of course the opposite is also true.
The bicep is eccentric in pushing, the tricep is in eccentric phase when pulling.

One side (of the body) can pull the other push.

All this applies to legs in the same way. We can pull and rotate ourself from one leg to the other rather than simply pushing - for example.
And I would maintain that there is also a rising and sinking..

[LaoDan]

I was hoping that there was some more evidence for the eccentric strength idea since it appears to tie in with TJQ talking about tendon strength… But, at present it seems like this explanation is currently too theoretical and not sufficiently based on experimental evidence. Unfortunately I am not sufficiently knowledgeable about biomechanics or physiology to shed additional light on the subject.

I think that there is a tendency to theorize (which is good), but that ideas are open to mistakes unless tested or supported by other experimental evidence. I think that is what happened with some of the TJQ theory. Some experience was felt, and in trying to explain it there is a tendency to speculate. Since there wasn’t experimental evidence in the past to confirm or contradict the speculation, it came to be accepted as true, and by some to be dogma.

Take the video on the stronger arms trick - she speculates that the reason the arms are more difficult to separate when held against the body is because the biceps are contracted and that they are stronger than the triceps. Sounds reasonable, but is it correct? To me it seems like the arms held in a rounded shape allows the elbows to flex and the shoulders to widen. When held close to the body, the arms are more linear and aligned with the direction of force being applied to them. Someone can widen the arms much easier (since the force is directed against the muscles that are holding the structure) than they can shorten or lengthen bones! This has little to do with the strength of the biceps. This trick works because the fingers touching provides the correct distance for the arm bones to align with the direction of force used to pull them apart. By contrast, if the fists were bumped against each other (still held close to the chest) rather than the extended finger, then someone could probably pull the arms apart, at least to shoulder width, but then would have difficulty pulling them wider than that once the bones become aligned with the direction of applied force.

Interpreting experiences can be tricky, and I prefer to have experimental evidence before I accept explanations that seem (from my perspective) to be debatable.

[origami_itto]

In 13 treatises, Cheng Man Ching refers to storing the neutralized energy in the dantien and releasing it from there when performing ti fang.

[everything]

I suppose if we do the "reverse" of a deadlift or overhead press, our back, hamstrings, calves, etc. are lengthening under load in the "negative" part of the movement.

if we do that because of some heavy person pushing us, we "receive" this "force" using "eccentric contraction". we could redirect it from there. you do this in any grappling sport.

[cloudz]

I suppose if we do the "reverse" of a deadlift or overhead press, our back, hamstrings, calves, etc. are lengthening under load in the "negative" part of the movement.

if we do that because of some heavy person pushing us, we "receive" this "force" using "eccentric contraction". we could redirect it from there. you do this in any grappling sport.

pretty much yes.

eccentric strength is there already in plenty of exercises - and more recently it's become more of a thing.
pull ups and squats being another two examples..
I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that 'eccentric strength' is a factor in TCC - or any other activity involving movement and resistance; but I think already we recognise it as static strength and (in tcc) it is utilised in the way we control our movements. In other words it's inherent in the training method.

Was it deliberate in the face of certain knowledge and opinion - I don't think so. As Lao Dan suggests; the move towards efficiency (of) balance, stability, control, refinement (of force/ strength delivery) led to methodology and intuitive explanations.

[origami_itto]

Regarding eccentric strength and the elastic band principle of muscle activation.
https://youtu.be/NnG7PWGrx20?t=140

I can't find any direct literature on it online at the moment, but there is research about cultivating and using the elasticity of the tissues instead of the contractile strength of the tissues. I believe this is the primary difference between Taijiquan and everything else. It's not about how the movements look, but how they are powered.

The benefit is easy to see with implements.

Take something long and thin and flexible and strong enough to withstand a little impact. A ruler, a kite stick, a riding crop, whatever.
Or even something inflexible like a drumstick, will still work the same.

Try holding it like a hammer or whatever and swinging it. Take note of how much work you have to do to produce how much force and how accurate you can be.

Now, hold it the same, but instead of swinging it, pull it back from the tip. Let it bend or let your wrist just maintain pressure in the opposite direction. Aim at the same thing and let go. See how much force you can produce and how accurate you can be.

So now imagine instead of a stick in your hand, it's your whole body, and instead of you pulling it back, your opponent is giving you a little energy to stretch it, and their movement has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

This should be starting to click.

So all the loquaciousness of this series of posts can be summed up with "Store the energy like drawing a bow, move the energy like drawing silk, release the energy like firing an arrow"

[cloudz]

Regarding eccentric strength and the elastic band principle of muscle activation.
https://youtu.be/NnG7PWGrx20?t=140

there's nothing there regards eccentric strength (thought there might be..). it's easier to conceptualise against resistance - bodyweight and gravity and or an external weight, object, force etc. for example lowering yourself from a chin up or pull up position is eccentric. or can be posited as an example of 'eccentric strength'..

imagine that portion of the exercise and ask yourself what does that have to do with that method of striking ?
personally I would say nothing, nothing at all really.

it's the same relationship that a push up (and its negatives) have with a punch, or as much as a squat has to do with a kick. It's a non specific physical training, other than plane of motion and muscle groups engaged

pulling on the resistance band - say horizontally toward you (stretching it) would actually be concentric and the way back (controlled) would be eccentric.
compare that to bend the bow shoot the arrow mechanics, how similar does that feel to you?

You want less muscle contraction, but you are training an exercise that's about muscle contraction against resistance to improve that.
Personally that's not the way i would look at it! It's basically an error of confusing motor control (and mobility) with strength

the elastic band principle of muscle activation ?
absolutely, but the activation will not be localised or simply 'eccentric' - it will be both.

[origami_itto]

Regarding eccentric strength and the elastic band principle of muscle activation.
https://youtu.be/NnG7PWGrx20?t=140

there's nothing there regards eccentric strength (thought there might be..). it's easier to conceptualise against resistance - bodyweight and gravity and or an external weight, object, force etc. for example lowering yourself from a chin up or pull up position is eccentric. or can be posited as an example of 'eccentric strength'..

Let's get clear about "eccentric strength"

An eccentric (lengthening) muscle contraction occurs when a force applied to the muscle exceeds the momentary force produced by the muscle itself, resulting in the forced lengthening of the muscle-tendon system while contracting (Lindstedt et al., 2001). During this process, the muscle absorbs energy developed by an external load, explaining why eccentric action is also called “negative work” as opposed to concentric (shortening) contraction or “positive work” (Abbott et al., 1952). Although not always obvious, eccentric muscle contractions are an integral part of most movements during daily or sport activities. Skeletal muscles contract eccentrically to support the weight of the body against gravity and to absorb shock or to store elastic recoil energy in preparation for concentric (or accelerating) contractions

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6510035/

imagine that portion of the exercise and ask yourself what does that have to do with that method of striking ?
personally I would say nothing, nothing at all really.

Striking is just one tiny piece of the total package, but you are right, that example doesnt make sense because you're dealing with a constant load. Imagine if while lowering yourself slowly against the pushup the bar suddenly came loose.

Dempsey developed some crude ways of accessing this concept, using the turning of his waist while leaving the arm behind to build the stretch and let it release.

But that powerhouse punch really is equivalent to Sho Nuff's mastery of the glow in "The Last Dragon" it's just in the hands.

What we're looking for in Taijiquan is a whole body manifestation of this same phenomenon, but mainly in the abdomen.

it's the same relationship that a push up (and its negatives) have with a punch, or as much as a squat has to do with a kick. It's a non specific physical training, other than plane of motion and muscle groups engaged

pulling on the resistance band - say horizontally toward you (stretching it) would actually be concentric and the way back (controlled) would be eccentric.
compare that to bend the bow shoot the arrow mechanics, how similar does that feel to you?

I'm not talking about using resistance bands to build muscle, I'm talking about using the muscles LIKE an elastic band. The muscles are the bow.

You want less muscle contraction, but you are training an exercise that's about muscle contraction against resistance to improve that.
Personally that's not the way i would look at it! It's basically an error of confusing motor control (and mobility) with strength

the elastic band principle of muscle activation ?
absolutely, but the activation will not be localised or simply 'eccentric' - it will be both.

It seems that we are mainly in agreement, just quibbling over details.

All of our muscles function in pairs, it could not be anything other than that. For every muscle to move our skeleton in one direction, there is another to move it in the other direction.

So what I'm suggesting here is that what contraction we do use is combined with gravity and the applied force of an opponent to eccentrically load the muscles we are not contracting and keep them in a state of potential.

The business of issuing power then is releasing our hold on that stored power and allowing the potential stored energy to become kinetic energy in movement. Find a straight line and release the arrow.

This in contrast to the usual method of using the muscles, which is direct contraction to produce external force.

EDIT: And to be clear I'm not drawing a line between external or external or Taijiquan and anything else, just saying this is how part of Taijiquan seems to work to me.

[Doc Stier]

Think less, feel more!

Theoretical debate and hypothetical conjecture is always less valuable and less informative than validation through experiential learning derived from consistent daily assessment of feeling the internal and external aspects of actual training and application, imo. As always, ymmv.

[origami_itto]

Think less, feel more!

Theoretical debate and hypothetical conjecture is always less valuable and less informative than validation through experiential learning derived from consistent daily assessment of feeling the internal and external aspects of actual training and application, imo. As always, ymmv.

Well you know, Doc, if you're trapped at a desk and can't actually DO partner work and training, the next best thing is to ignore your actual job and talk about it.

[cloudz]

you don't need any outside force or resistance to load the bow.
and the discussion about eccentric and concentric contraction is an unnecessary sideshow, frankly.
if in any way that came through then it was worth it

happy training

[Quigga]

If you have a body and can consciously feel it, you can practice anywhere.

[everything]

If you have a body and can consciously feel it, you can practice anywhere.

concise, wise words

[Quigga]

Not really. What about people with minds that cannot feel their body? Forms of paralysis, sometimes from neck down. Or forms of coma, dream yoga...? All answers proclaiming absolute truth indefinitely are wrong. Even this one lol!