the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Luo means to stroke, to tidy-up, to rub along the surface of something like skin, hair, fur, table, etc, In Taijiquan, it is simply medial rotation of the arm or inward rotation which is the opposite to Bing or Peng. So, combining Bing and Luo we have a repeated cycle of rotating the forearm from side to side like a monkey drum to experience the rotation and recoil from side to side. The inward eccentric block is retracting the forearm to block and follow up with a palm heel strike which is a Bing action. When the opponent will do the reverse to block and counter attack, we will find ourselves doing a single pushing hand duet. It is easy and simple when doing it with low intensity but not the same in high intensity, and even more complicated with two hand duets. Using too much concentric strength will stiff the arm to slow down and be less responsive in utilising the incoming force. It is expected that a good coordinated eccentric strike will produce a powerful strike and still maintain responsiveness to an encounter. The ability of “automatic release” in an eccentric strike is a must in performing the technique of “entice into emptiness” as one sort of resisting with maximum strength and letting go suddenly to overbalance the opponent. It just happens that it is easier and faster to release eccentric strength than concentric strength.

Maybe this is why Taijiquan practitioners can not do pushing hand duet when they fail to develop their eccentric strength and recoils in doing forms. The solution is to apply rotational stretch in doing forms to develop their eccentric strength, and I noticed some teachers emphasise stretching in every move in doing the forms while others just do it softly. It is difficult to promote Taijiquan as a martial art but why not. Restoration is difficult when damage is done by politics and commercialization.

Could you point us to studies showing that: “it is easier and faster to release eccentric strength than concentric strength.”

I only came across studies on electromachanical delay saying that ECC is faster in rapid force development compared to CON.

But this is only a natural phenomenon, as you can release a weight faster and easier when you lower it than lifting it. But make sure it is heavy enough like up to 1 rep max.

Why luo, isn't it lü?

taiwandeutscher wrote:Why luo, isn't it lü?

履 lǚ, I can not find the original character 履 lǚ with a hand on the side in the internet, please help.

I try to look up 扌履, and can not find it , please help.

In mainland publications I generally see it written as 捋 and IME is pronounced as lü in Mandarin (would be lyut3 in Cantonese). HTH.

You know you can do it without the central axis of the arm moving, only turning in place.

Seriously though how much strength can you develop - eccentric or otherwise - moving your arms around against no resistance ? (doing tai chi)
Lu doesn't require strength - no properly executed technique should require ''being stronger'. Regardless of whether greater strength can be more effective, or make you more effective.

Your posts don't really make sense - you seem more interested in pushing some sort of 'eccentric strength' agenda, than anything else.
I just find it strange.

Of course eccentric strength is important - it is half of our 'strength equation' if you like. And Yes it has and does perhaps take a back seat in conventional training. That does seem to have changed.

Negatives as they are called are fairly common now. But, what I would really like from you is some training info, rather than simply theory. I know how to training eccentric strength. What I don't really get is how you expect to isolate such a thing and apply to combat. I asked you in the other thread to define eccentric striking.

What is the method, process and technique ?
Describe an eccentric punch vs. a concentric punch.

and eccentric lu vs, a concentric lu ?

Only then will we really be getting to the bottom of this, otherwise it is just conjecture on your part; fancy theory, a few nice new phrases - but no substance and no genuine added value.

Yeung wrote:I try to look up 扌履, and can not find it , please help.

One of those MA characters, not found in any dictionary, not even in Zhongwen da cidian. I created one many years ago, lost it, when changing PC, got another one from Nabil Ranne, but also not 100%. So your solution is ok!

The aim of the posts on neutralisation is to give practitioners the opportunities to falsify or raise questions regarding my non-concentric exercise model of martial arts that do not use brute force. That is not to run lessons to people doing Taijiquan as a soft art as suggested by some not using any strength. My suggestion can only be to add a bit of stretching in your forms and learn pushing hands to develop your strength and springiness. Taijiquan is a martial art, not some psychological phenomenon that is beneficial to health without proper workout as advertised by governments and stakeholders. If Taijiquan is good for maintaining balance then coaches and teachers should know how to achieve this objective by improving practitioners’ strength and flexibility. This is part of the project to scientize the art of Taijiquan. Eccentric exercise, plyometrics, and the utilisation of stored elastic energy are very big topics on their own. So, it is not some fancy idea. When you google them you will find thousands and thousands of books and articles on them in the last 30 years. Furthermore, archaeological findings on exercises have dated back to 500 BC in China.

Hi,

you can see how we use luo in our training in this video.



luo is the part where this awesome guy in the video is floating over the surface.
to be clear here cause you cannot see it in the video. this not a lightness move. its heavy (like sucking you into the earth).

Thank you, 履 lǚ as a verb means walk on, and it was used in the saying like walk on thin ice. Maybe this is why they added 扌on the side of it to make it a hand movement.

Hi Yeung,

PK teaches that eccentric contraction is only the crudest first level in taiji, really we want an elastic stretch which is more subtle ("eccentric contraction" is the closest term physiologists have for it, perhaps because they can't conceive how power can come without a contraction of some sort).

Some public PK writings on the topic if of interest:
https://patrickkellytaiji.com/taiji/MOV ... power.html
https://patrickkellytaiji.com/taiji/MOV ... ching.html

the internet has come up with a great term for that kind of power.
when fascia just won't do, it's time to look for the woo!

we have these great things called muscles that power our body amazingly well - just as great God and Mother Nature intended therm to.
Works great for tigers, sharks, Lions and Eagles, so why do so many be hating on these fine specimens of Gods work and how they naturally function ?

that anything alternative must be the 'real' source of power..
breath and mind is not enough either now ?

such a shame; seek not far away what is close at hand.