Wu style body mechanics

[suckinlhbf]

David,

What I didn’t see mention unless I missed it, was the idea of following something or being driven by something.

For example, one could offset an opponent's balance in a close-up confrontation using internal discipline (internal movement), then a giant step (stance) could be taken whereby the opponent is thrown to the ground using the motion of the hips in the process (external movement). The motions of the "repulse Monkey" section of the form come to mind as an example "Repulse Monkey."

Is it what you are looking for?

[windwalker]

David,

What I didn’t see mention unless I missed it, was the idea of following something or being driven by something.

For example, one could offset an opponent's balance in a close-up confrontation using internal discipline (internal movement), then a giant step (stance) could be taken whereby the opponent is thrown to the ground using the motion of the hips in the process (external movement). The motions of the "repulse Monkey" section of the form come to mind as an example "Repulse Monkey."

Is it what you are looking for?

noticed it after I had posted....

Even in this case,,,what has happened has happened before the external movement, its just following something that has already occurred.

Feel it's often what is missed in the many demos that some have problems with....the reactions of those in the demos are something that they felt happening that may or may not coincide with what is seen...

Indeed, it can feel like hitting an invisible brick wall,,,,

getting one's frame right for their ability after developing it, not easy...

The practices following development IME not the same as once developed....

[HotSoup]

Saw a post that somebody may find it interesting.
…
"When you teach or demonstrate the internal move "turning at the waist" in Classical Tai Chi, you likely will encounter questions "why not using Kua/hip." Most external martial arts and large tai chi schools practice Kua or hip for that turning motion.
…

Thanks for sharing this, but I feel that what is meant in this article by “turning the hip” is not what I meant by “legs should also twist (kua should work together with dantian)” in the initial question.

I feel that they are talking about turning both waist and hips in the same direction and relying on the body inertia to generate power for strikes. My point was about turning both the waist and kua, but in opposite directions, this way creating a stronger spiral (because the force is applied in two directions and together with reaction forces, is effectively quadrupled), compared to just turning the waist in an isolated manner.

[suckinlhbf]

HotSoup,

The answer is in the article.

Anatomically, the hips and waist are different, but one could certainly turn the waist without turning the hips, but the reverse is not possible. "Distinguishing the Hip and Waist"

This student studied both sides of that question with the Wu Family, then with Master Stephen Hwa.

Not stated is how the frame size has such bearing on whether injudicious, called "overturning" hip causes feet to move to upset the balance. Also, one can indeed turn such amounts of the hip in a more prominent stance. What is also not mentioned is that the legs play a significant role in such movement. One leg is pushed down at the ground, resulting in the body moving into the other leg. However, in the small frame of Classical Tai Chi, one leg is used to pull the body into the other leg.

Left unsaid is proper "timing" use of the hips. For instance, one can turn the waist, THEN turn the hips in a follow-up movement. Another example is that the hips always turn by default when one does such movements where "hands follow the feet, elbow follow the knee."

My Wu taichi teacher learnt from Wu Chien Chuan. I spent a few years with him but not enough to know Wu Taichi. I can only speak on what I see.

Spiral can come in with a "single direction twisting" or "the upper body twists in one direction and the lower body twists in an opposite direction". One can turn the waist without turning the hip in the "single direction twisting" but need to turn the kua/hip and waist at the same time to do the second one. Stephen Hwa initiated the movement from his hip. His stable and steady legs play a significant role in the movement as discussed in the article. We can find the same principle in the basic Xinyi and Bagua training - "Stable step Beng" and "walk the circle". The spiral power could be stronger.

[cloudz]

stable and steady doesn't mean nothing is going on force wise.
'stable and steady' is to be expected.

rooted in the feet; directed by the waist
if it's spiral power you want, then it's not going to just spiral in the top half.

[wayne hansen]

HotSoup,

The answer is in the article.

Anatomically, the hips and waist are different, but one could certainly turn the waist without turning the hips, but the reverse is not possible. "Distinguishing the Hip and Waist"

This student studied both sides of that question with the Wu Family, then with Master Stephen Hwa.

Not stated is how the frame size has such bearing on whether injudicious, called "overturning" hip causes feet to move to upset the balance. Also, one can indeed turn such amounts of the hip in a more prominent stance. What is also not mentioned is that the legs play a significant role in such movement. One leg is pushed down at the ground, resulting in the body moving into the other leg. However, in the small frame of Classical Tai Chi, one leg is used to pull the body into the other leg.

Left unsaid is proper "timing" use of the hips. For instance, one can turn the waist, THEN turn the hips in a follow-up movement. Another example is that the hips always turn by default when one does such movements where "hands follow the feet, elbow follow the knee."

My Wu taichi teacher learnt from Wu Chien Chuan. I spent a few years with him but not enough to know Wu Taichi. I can only speak on what I see.

Spiral can come in with a "single direction twisting" or "the upper body twists in one direction and the lower body twists in an opposite direction". One can turn the waist without turning the hip in the "single direction twisting" but need to turn the kua/hip and waist at the same time to do the second one. Stephen Hwa initiated the movement from his hip. His stable and steady legs play a significant role in the movement as discussed in the article. We can find the same principle in the basic Xinyi and Bagua training - "Stable step Beng" and "walk the circle". The spiral power could be stronger.

You get it

[HotSoup]

Spiral can come in with a "single direction twisting" or "the upper body twists in one direction and the lower body twists in an opposite direction". One can turn the waist without turning the hip in the "single direction twisting" but need to turn the kua/hip and waist at the same time to do the second one. Stephen Hwa initiated the movement from his hip. His stable and steady legs play a significant role in the movement as discussed in the article. We can find the same principle in the basic Xinyi and Bagua training - "Stable step Beng" and "walk the circle". The spiral power could be stronger.

This sounds like it’s really the same method, both mechanically and “intentionally”, i.e. two forces are still applied in opposite directions, except the base isn’t moved, most likely to prevent parasitic loss. Thanks for details!

You get it

Wayne, with all your experience you could add some more details, instead of sitting on them

[wayne hansen]

I’m not sitting on anything
Any thing I have of value really needs to be shown in person
If you have a specific question I will try to answer it
I teach by showing and then correcting until the student feels

[HotSoup]

I actually did ask a specific question in the original post. I wondered what other forum members thought about the rigid base vs turning one, for spiraling (e.g. experience with either or both, personal preference, perhaps some reasoning behind the choice, etc.).

I’m not seeking online tutelage—I’m happy with what I have Just curious about experience of others, especially those with a lot of it. It helps keep mind open and creates room for exploration.

Would you mind sharing your experience with it?

[johnwang]

Just curious about experience of others, especially those with a lot of it. It helps keep mind open and creates room for exploration.

Would you mind sharing your experience with it?

Power come from:

- bottom -> up.
- back -> front.

also body coordination should be:

- hand cordinate with foot.
- elbow coodinate with knee.
- shoulder coordinate with hip.

In this short clip, it's clearly to see that his elbow does not coordinate with his knee. When he extends his elbow, his knee does not move at all.

[wayne hansen]

I don’t know if I can answer your question because I really don’t understand it
Let me say
The feet follow the square the hands follow the circle
The square for development the circle for intensity
The knee joint is a hinge the upper body joints are circular
I think of using the body like a tank or an excavator
The tracks take it to the job the turet turns to deliver the pay load

[cloudz]

what was posted from an outside source regards the waist and hips, I didn't find all that clear or helpful.
the main reason for that is 'the hip' is just too vague and ambiguous.

'the hip' area is super important as it is the area that connect upper and lower. more precisely the waist to the upper thigh.
that happens via a major muscle within a muscle group; supporting muscles. this major muscle runs through the pelvis.

so when we say, the hip, we have to consider; the hip joint (ball and socket), the hip bones (pelvis), the major muscle.
as well ' the kwa'; a more specific zone, between the pubic area and upper thighs. Here we want to see/ feel opening and closing action.

What makes things even more difficult is that externally we may see the pelvis stay relatively still, but it doesn't follow the the muscle(s) within are still.
If they are 'still', that's bad, because how then are we really connecting and moving between waist and feet.

some styles will do opening and closing more externally (visible) and other more internally (under the surface).
What this means is the difference between moving the pelvis via your muscles or keeping the pelvis still and moving the muscle.

it's worth noting that if we are specifically talking about the turning (horizontal plane) this will involve twisting/ rotating.
the upper and lower, in this respect, can twist together (rotate), one direction, or counter directions like the wringing of a towel.

beyond that we then have the vertical aspect of force generation, where this zone or area also plays a pivotal role.

What Wayne notes regards the knee joint for example is pertinent to the vertical plane of motion. The combination of the two joint types actions, would be what ultimately combines vertical and horizontal. That combination is what will create the spiral.

What Wayne intuitively understands as square and circle quite likely relates to this more involved anatomical explanation I would think.

[HotSoup]

In this short clip, it's clearly to see that his elbow does not coordinate with his knee. When he extends his elbow, his knee does not move at all.

Thanks for your contribution, John, I see what you mean.

I don’t know if I can answer your question because I really don’t understand it
Let me say
The feet follow the square the hands follow the circle
The square for development the circle for intensity
The knee joint is a hinge the upper body joints are circular
I think of using the body like a tank or an excavator
The tracks take it to the job the turet turns to deliver the pay load

I think you understood my question well. I guess, the language of physics and anatomy is not how you prefer to frame your explanations, but your analogy makes a lot of sense to me, thanks. Continuing your analogy, when I talk about turning kuas together withe waist, I'm talking of a "spherical tank consisting of multiple turrets, each on their own plane". This allows a higher level of mobility and involving all body parts, while having the same level of firmness on all sides (or "the surface of this sphere").

what was posted from an outside source regards the waist and hips, I didn't find all that clear or helpful.

To be honest, the stream of consciousness in that article only started to make some sense after extra explanation provided by suckinlhb. Perhaps it'd made more sense to me had I spent some time in the environment where similar explanation vocab was used, but alas..

so when we say, the hip, we have to consider; the hip joint (ball and socket), the hip bones (pelvis), the major muscle.
as well ' the kwa'; a more specific zone, between the pubic area and upper thighs. Here we want to see/ feel opening and closing action.

I assume you mean psoas major by "major muscle". I'd probably expand it to iliopsoas (psoas major + iliacus), since iliacus also connects femurs to the spine. But in general, I agree with your assessment, or at least this is how I understand the functional side of "kua" — force transmission between the legs and spine, by the means of ilipsoas, while the hip joints provide the ability to adjust the direction of that force. There's naturally way more happening in the body, but without decent simplification, it's impossible to discuss this meaningfully.

What makes things even more difficult is that externally we may see the pelvis stay relatively still, but it doesn't follow the the muscle(s) within are still.
If they are 'still', that's bad, because how then are we really connecting and moving between waist and feet.

some styles will do opening and closing more externally (visible) and other more internally (under the surface).
What this means is the difference between moving the pelvis via your muscles or keeping the pelvis still and moving the muscle.

Right, this is what I inferred from suckinlhbf's explanations: The method is the same, while the external appearance may be perceived differently. Cryptic explanations do not really help anyone understand what's going on.

Thanks for taking trouble and describing your understanding in detail, I appreciate it!

[cloudz]

no worries,

yes those are the two major muscles I was alluding to.
when you are turning the waist (upper area), the connecting tissues and muscles can wrap in and around the bones so to speak(lower area).
the upper thigh bone will rotate a bit in the socket; in this type of model the pelvis (hips) can remain stationary. (model 1)

when I learnt some wu style in the Ma Yueh Liang lineage the basic swing exercises had the hips (pelvis) rotating with the waist to create a clear opening and closing in both inguinal creases. (model 2)

the practical Chen style, for example doesn't do that (model 1); they keep the hips stationary. by rotating the waist (lower torso) and pubic area between upper thighs; they achieve an open close in that area (inguinal crease) that uses more of an internal stretch. There's more muscle wrapping in and around that area and bone rotation within the (ball) joint.

[suckinlhbf]

To assume and imagine the SI joints can be opened and loosen up to enable an outward expansion, up and down movements, and circular movement, there could be a lot to be envisaged to the possibilities of hip/kwa movements and functions.