Wu style body mechanics

[HotSoup]

Stephen Hwa posted this video with his signature spiraling method: https://youtu.be/m2xJZ40xSZQ and made me curious whether other forum members find it resembling their own approach to spiraling/winding.

I was taught to do it in a similar manner, except that the legs should also twist (kua should work together with dantian), instead of being just the rigid foundation Mr Hwa is referring to.

What’s your experience with such mechanics?

[cloudz]

yea, I call bullshit. whole body mechanics as far as I'm concerned..
of course he uses momentum and I could see him moving his legs as well
only got the the part where he was waving his arm around like a robot man - his legs were clearly doing something.

honestly, so much bullshit in this art.. too many talkers, not enough doers.
you can tell them a mile off

does he engage a fight or spar like a robot too?
As for scientific explanation, do me a favour..

if teachers like this represent some kind of good standard or authority, then god help us.

[edededed]

He is trying to use Western words to explain Chinese concepts, so it sounds a bit confusing, unless perhaps one is already familiar with the ideas.

His background is Wu taiji, so...
- Yes, some people think it looks like robot taiji (I did too, before).
- The isolation of the waist from the lower body is a Wu style trait (as HotSoup alluded to, most other neijia don't do this)

[wayne hansen]

Nothing wrong with what he is saying his form is just not real good
There are specific exercises in Wu to practice spiral energy
He is explaining kindergarten there are a lot more steps to get a PHD

[cloudz]

come on Wayne, can you even walk without using momentum - it' just a lie, whether he knows it or not. And he has the temerity to call it scientific.

Honestly, just another guy trying to be clever to make a buck. where's the value in educating people in drivel that is just untrue ?
If you don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't be saying it. and if you are, people like me have every right to call it out.

People deserve to be educated properly, not with bullshit that just perpetuates ignorance.
we don't use momentum, oh we're so different and special, we do tai ch blah blah blah
it's perpetuating the elitism of specialness our community suffers so badly from.

makes my skin crawl frankly.

[cloudz]

He is trying to use Western words to explain Chinese concepts, so it sounds a bit confusing, unless perhaps one is already familiar with the ideas.

His background is Wu taiji, so...
- Yes, some people think it looks like robot taiji (I did too, before).
- The isolation of the waist from the lower body is a Wu style trait (as HotSoup alluded to, most other neijia don't do this)

I've seen plenty of Wu style sir, as well as practiced it, and none of it has looked as robotic as this guy does.
shall we start posting examples - I'm pretty sure I'll out post you by 10 to 1 on the wu style plus minus robot scale.

in itself i wouldn't mind - it's just form after all, and what he does - as form - may well have it's merits.

but come on - robot style - or keeping that style to his stage and age. I don't know, I just find it a bit funny and odd.
bless him, he's just an old man, I feel a bit bad now for picking on him.

[wayne hansen]

You seem very invested in this
He has no more bullshit than many others and a lot less than some
The square form is deliberately mechanical to breed good habits
Some get it some don’t
When I first learnt Wu I tried to make it circular until I found that I was learning a square form
I later sought out another 3 teachers to retrace my steps
I don’t think this guy is chasing the buck
He just put out a book and some clips to explain what he knows
Much better than teaching duplicities in semi as and making up your own forms before you understand anything like some others do

[cloudz]

invested in people learning to detect things that are literally untrue - yet spoken as if they are.
you're not then ?

Jesus Wayne, don't defend the indefensible.
If someone says black is white and tells people that may not know the difference are you just going stand aside and say nothing.
a famous philosopher made a great quote about that.. think he was French, but anyway.

If he doesn't know that he's using some level of momentum when he moves, someone REALLY needs to correct him.
especially calling it 'scientific'. at the same time hmm. truth does matter actually, believe it or not.

Ok great that's square form is it, ok fine, that's why it's robotic - ok.
Does that also mean half your body is static in square form ?

He states that as if it applies to all tai chi. He states it as if it is the right way... Is it Wayne ?

I am invested in this right here, yes, what's wrong with that anyway. I want to see good clear information spread about tai chi. not wishy washy questionable and dogmatic narratives.

[windwalker]

Stephen Hwa posted this video with his signature spiraling method: https://youtu.be/m2xJZ40xSZQ and made me curious whether other forum members find it resembling their own approach to spiraling/winding.

I was taught to do it in a similar manner, except that the legs should also twist (kua should work together with dantian), instead of being just the rigid foundation Mr Hwa is referring to.

What’s your experience with such mechanics?

seems quite similar to this,,,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ILJ-PmEiVc


some of it put to use


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk4jjrrFzlg

[cloudz]

Stephen Hwa posted this video with his signature spiraling method: https://youtu.be/m2xJZ40xSZQ and made me curious whether other forum members find it resembling their own approach to spiraling/winding.

I was taught to do it in a similar manner, except that the legs should also twist (kua should work together with dantian), instead of being just the rigid foundation Mr Hwa is referring to.

What’s your experience with such mechanics?

seems quite similar to this,,,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ILJ-PmEiVc

What's the matter David, can't you just answer his question directly.
Ma is using his whole body in the very first move - is that your answer then?

whether you start out teaching people in a robotic manner. To stay there or keep it there is a disservice.
It's a stepping stone, no more.
tai chi shouldn't be robotic or square - someone tell me I'm wrong please.

Since when did beginner style become the way..

[windwalker]

Stephen Hwa posted this video with his signature spiraling method: https://youtu.be/m2xJZ40xSZQ and made me curious whether other forum members find it resembling their own approach to spiraling/winding.

I was taught to do it in a similar manner, except that the legs should also twist (kua should work together with dantian), instead of being just the rigid foundation Mr Hwa is referring to.

What’s your experience with such mechanics?

seems quite similar to this,,,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ILJ-PmEiVc

What's the matter David, can't you just answer his question directly.
Ma is using his whole body in the very first move - is that your answer then?

whether you start out teaching people in a robotic manner. To stay there or keep it there is a disservice.
It's a stepping stone, no more.
tai chi shouldn't be robotic or square - someone tell me I'm wrong please.

Since when did beginner style become the way..

I think its better for people to arrive at their own answers....
Examples of other masters might help them to note the differences in what "they'er" looking for....

Some teachers prefer showing things in their own way moving more inside others not....
As to why this might be so, depends on the teacher, and maybe the audience he's trying to reach....

View all forms as training devices that change with time, understanding and practice....

[edededed]

I've seen plenty of Wu style sir, as well as practiced it, and none of it has looked as robotic as this guy does.
shall we start posting examples - I'm pretty sure I'll out post you by 10 to 1 on the wu style plus minus robot scale.

Ah - just to clarify a bit, I would say that the Shanghai (Ma Yueliang/Wu Yinghua) line is often perceived as "robotic" compared to the Hong Kong or Beijing lines. (I practice the former.)

[cloudz]

Maybe ed.

I have done a bit in London under Michael Actons line. I didn't find it robotic whatsoever. Just look at Ma's fast form anyway.
I wen to a class my Gary Wragg (Wu family/ Eddy Wu) and they started people off with Square form). So sure, that makes sense to see as 'robotic'.
When I watch Ma or his daughter, some of his students and so on - I really don't see it that way. But sure in comparison to some other it's a bit more understated perhaps, that's all really.

I remember years ago, some non tai chi people ragging on this guy for looking so robotic (think it was on bullshido!), but he's never been someone I have taken much notice of; I did one lesson of square form so I'm not going to pretend to know much about it. If Wayne says that is what it is - we can all rightly bow to his expertise and experience of it.

Not my cup of tea, let's just leave it at that.

I will add just add one more thing - I have never heard any teacher say that half the body should be still whilst the other half is moving. Maybe he means externally - he must do. and perhaps if you move at a slow enough pace it appears this way. but the energy or movement/ force whatever way of speaking you prefer should still be happening. so no I don't agree about this 'stillness'

If anyone wants to explain that, they can be my guest..

[suckinlhbf]

Saw a post that somebody may find it interesting.


Blogging about Classical Tai Chi in California and Buffalo, NY

Monday, July 6, 2009
Turn at Waist vs. Turn at Hip
TURN AT WAIST and/vs. TURN AT HIP

Discipleship Ceremony 1986

Wu Hsia Fung with Jim Roach .and Wu Kwong Yu(Eddie)

(I am no longer a disciple, but I treasure this photo...no gray hair)

"When you teach or demonstrate the internal move "turning at the waist" in Classical Tai Chi, you likely will encounter questions "why not using Kua/hip." Most external martial arts and large tai chi schools practice Kua or hip for that turning motion.

One example of such discussion could is at "Rum Soaked Fist."

Jim Roach, our first certified instructor, spent his early years of martial art training using "turn with Kua/hip," then switched over to learn Classical Tai chi using "turn at the waist." He has good insight into the discussions in the above link. Here are his comments regarding such discussion." Master Stephen Hwa

Jim Roach on Turning at the waist vs. turning using Kua/Hip

It is said nowadays in Wu Style that one cannot develop any power (to do such things as punch) from turning at the waist, that one must "use the hips." Wu's Style

Another Wu Style says one must "turn the body around the waist not using the hips." Wu Style

That commentary says one will lose their balance if they turn in those postures from the hip.

See Ma Jiangbao as quoted on Cook Ding's Kitchen: Cook Ding's Kitchen: An Interview with Ma Jiang Bao (cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com) Martin Boedicker (wixsite.com)

Anatomically, the hips and waist are different, but one could certainly turn the waist without turning the hips, but the reverse is not possible. "Distinguishing the Hip and Waist"

This student studied both sides of that question with the Wu Family, then with Master Stephen Hwa.

Not stated is how the frame size has such bearing on whether injudicious, called "overturning" hip causes feet to move to upset the balance. Also, one can indeed turn such amounts of the hip in a more prominent stance. What is also not mentioned is that the legs play a significant role in such movement. One leg is pushed down at the ground, resulting in the body moving into the other leg. However, in the small frame of Classical Tai Chi, one leg is used to pull the body into the other leg.

Left unsaid is proper "timing" use of the hips. For instance, one can turn the waist, THEN turn the hips in a follow-up movement. Another example is that the hips always turn by default when one does such movements where "hands follow the feet, elbow follow the knee."

Proper use of hips in coordination with the waist as shown in the cooperative push hands (although push hands are not in this clip, one can certainly see the up-close "fa jing" power, and it is minus ANY hip turning...is it not?) training of Tao of Martial Applications DVD. Turning the hips is not eschewed. It just means with the right timing.

For example, one could offset an opponent's balance in a close-up confrontation using internal discipline (internal movement), then a giant step (stance) could be taken whereby the opponent is thrown to the ground using the motion of the hips in the process (external movement). The motions of the "repulse Monkey" section of the form come to mind as an example "Repulse Monkey."

Jim Roach

Posted by Jim Roach Classical Tai Chi of Buffalo at 10:27 AM
Labels: hips, timing, Waist, wu's style
1 comment:
Rick Matz said...
Excellent post! Thanks for all of those links. I'll be studying this post for quite some time.

June 23, 2009 at 10:00 PM

[windwalker]

Saw a post that somebody may find it interesting.


Blogging about Classical Tai Chi in California and Buffalo, NY

Monday, July 6, 2009
Turn at Waist vs. Turn at Hip
TURN AT WAIST and/vs. TURN AT HIP

Discipleship Ceremony 1986

Wu Hsia Fung with Jim Roach .and Wu Kwong Yu(Eddie)

(I am no longer a disciple, but I treasure this photo...no gray hair)

"When you teach or demonstrate the internal move "turning at the waist" in Classical Tai Chi, you likely will encounter questions "why not using Kua/hip." Most external martial arts and large tai chi schools practice Kua or hip for that turning motion.

One example of such discussion could is at "Rum Soaked Fist."

Jim Roach, our first certified instructor, spent his early years of martial art training using "turn with Kua/hip," then switched over to learn Classical Tai chi using "turn at the waist." He has good insight into the discussions in the above link. Here are his comments regarding such discussion." Master Stephen Hwa

Jim Roach on Turning at the waist vs. turning using Kua/Hip

It is said nowadays in Wu Style that one cannot develop any power (to do such things as punch) from turning at the waist, that one must "use the hips." Wu's Style

Another Wu Style says one must "turn the body around the waist not using the hips." Wu Style

That commentary says one will lose their balance if they turn in those postures from the hip.

See Ma Jiangbao as quoted on Cook Ding's Kitchen: Cook Ding's Kitchen: An Interview with Ma Jiang Bao (cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com) Martin Boedicker (wixsite.com)

Anatomically, the hips and waist are different, but one could certainly turn the waist without turning the hips, but the reverse is not possible. "Distinguishing the Hip and Waist"

This student studied both sides of that question with the Wu Family, then with Master Stephen Hwa.

Not stated is how the frame size has such bearing on whether injudicious, called "overturning" hip causes feet to move to upset the balance. Also, one can indeed turn such amounts of the hip in a more prominent stance. What is also not mentioned is that the legs play a significant role in such movement. One leg is pushed down at the ground, resulting in the body moving into the other leg. However, in the small frame of Classical Tai Chi, one leg is used to pull the body into the other leg.

Left unsaid is proper "timing" use of the hips. For instance, one can turn the waist, THEN turn the hips in a follow-up movement. Another example is that the hips always turn by default when one does such movements where "hands follow the feet, elbow follow the knee."

Proper use of hips in coordination with the waist as shown in the cooperative push hands (although push hands are not in this clip, one can certainly see the up-close "fa jing" power, and it is minus ANY hip turning...is it not?) training of Tao of Martial Applications DVD. Turning the hips is not eschewed. It just means with the right timing.

For example, one could offset an opponent's balance in a close-up confrontation using internal discipline (internal movement), then a giant step (stance) could be taken whereby the opponent is thrown to the ground using the motion of the hips in the process (external movement). The motions of the "repulse Monkey" section of the form come to mind as an example "Repulse Monkey."

Jim Roach

Posted by Jim Roach Classical Tai Chi of Buffalo at 10:27 AM
Labels: hips, timing, Waist, wu's style
1 comment:
Rick Matz said...
Excellent post! Thanks for all of those links. I'll be studying this post for quite some time.

June 23, 2009 at 10:00 PM

Yes indeed
Excellent post

Yes timing and frame size, hard to get correct
Can change a lot of things if not properly understood.

interesting post