"certification" in tai chi

[everything]

my mom was saying her yoga teacher is now "certified" to teach tai chi, but she doesn't want to take it and have to memorize some other choreo, and she doesn't know if the teacher could be "good".

I was like "WTF" is with the cert? Who TF can cert her?

As for "good", I told her there are only two definitions of good, and there is no way she'll be able to tell, and they're irrelevant for what she seeks:

1. this person can use MA, specifically tai chi, in 1v1 fighting (the sort of stuff people like to discuss here and disagree on a lot)
2. there is stuff going on "inside" (the sort of stuff people freak out about when discussing here) and this person could help her with basics of qigong.

So on an expert board, there wouldn't even be agreement. There is no way she could evaluate that.

Given all that, WTF is with "certification"?

[Steve James]

You asked the right question first. Who is giving the certification? Is it from a school or from a government or a teacher?

Getting a piece of paper saying one is qualified to teach isn't new.

[wayne hansen]

Fake certificates won’t bring out anymore charlatans than there are now

[SCMT]

Just search Taiji certification and you will get a bunch...from $20 to $200... maybe even higher.... but it does not mean they know diddly about Taijiquan

[Doc Stier]

Fake certificates aren't needed to teach TCC, as teachers aren't expected to display anything other than the ability to perform whatever they are teaching.

Phony certificates claiming false Black Belt Dan ranks, however, have been quite common in the Japanese and Korean martial arts, especially among those who have created their own proprietary styles in which they are the Founder and Grand Master, since high BB Degree ranks have always been coveted as a high priority of great value and importance in those arts.

[everything]

I think she'd get some benefit (better balance, some mental exercise to memorize a choreography, maybe some socializing) regardless of the perceived or real quality (martial or qigong imho), but she's kind of prejudiced against the "certificate" for totally different reasons I'm prejudiced against it, lol.

[Bhassler]

There are lots of certification programs (tai chi for balance, for elderly, for arthritis, for Parkinson's, etc.) that are usually geared towards understanding the specific issues and needs of the target demographic, as well as teaching a form that is suitable and beneficial for said demographic. It's no more bogus for an organization to offer a certification than it is for some random internet person to say no one has the right to certify anyone, or to claim that they are the arbiter of the quality of certifications.

[everything]

it is very bogus. nobody here even agrees on what IS tai chi. I don't know if people here are experts, but they are surely more enthusiastic about the art, and closer to the sources, whether from YLC or some "family" style of martial art. yet if those sources don't form an organization to issue certifications (perhaps they do?), why would a some rando org be able to have any credibility to do so. so it is very much non-bogus for randos on the internet to point that out. all you need is simple logic to see that.

to prove "non-bogusness" of a cert requires at least some kind of results and credibility from some other body. one possible path could be:
- we get some kind of "credibility" from various tai chi teachers with some kind of "credibility"
- perhaps we get some kind of credibility from some personal training org and some kind of hospital or senior center org.
- we make some organization that studied that "these movements" from "this style" helped prevent falls.
- we teach "this style" and form some teaching on how to teach it and say these teachers are now certified.

AFAIK that's not what's happened here. it's not equivalent for some rando to just "make up" a certification and some rando to point out that's totally bogus.
I can "make up" a guitar teacher certification (I am terrible at guitar), and it wouldn't be bogus for anyone to question that. It would make sense.

[Doc Stier]

At the end of the day, each of us carries our validating certification in our hands and bodies everywhere we go.

If you can effectively demonstrate excellent skills and benefits derived from your practice, nobody will need to see a certificate to believe you have a credible personal achievement.

However, if you are unable to personally demonstrate credible skills and benefits derived from your training, the display of paper certificates claiming to validate ranks, titles, or expertise, only represent an obvious disparity of fact, which results in an embarrassing loss of face.

[Steve James]

Certificates are as legitimate as their sources. But, there's little agreement on a/the legitimate source for tcc certification. Otoh, I've given classes at retirement homes without having any certificates. This was in the 80s, and no one asked for a certificate, and I did it for free. Nowadays, I think some form of certification might be needed for insurance purposes.

A certificate in tcc would be like a combination of a diploma and a belt. It means very little outside of the individual school or to those who don't recognize it. And, it's easy to buy one or make one's own, just like a black belt.

[Bhassler]

to prove "non-bogusness" of a cert requires at least some kind of results and credibility from some other body. one possible path could be:
- we get some kind of "credibility" from various tai chi teachers with some kind of "credibility"
- perhaps we get some kind of credibility from some personal training org and some kind of hospital or senior center org.
- we make some organization that studied that "these movements" from "this style" helped prevent falls.
- we teach "this style" and form some teaching on how to teach it and say these teachers are now certified.

AFAIK that's not what's happened here.

That's the whole point-- you don't know. You said you didn't know who did the certification, so far all you know, it could be exactly the type of situation you listed above. Maybe the yoga teacher has been a hard core taiji student for 20 years, and just got the certification for insurance purposes, as was mentioned. But based on what you wrote, you don't know any of that. Instead, you come out making a bunch of bullshit assumptions about what the certification was, and the teacher's background (or lack thereof), and try to support it with an inaccurate, oversimplified definition of what you think "good" taiji must be (which is frankly ridiculous).

I've had reason to interact with a couple of different certification programs, and while it certainly didn't help my taiji any, they can do a tremendous amount of good for the individuals and communities they serve. Far more than enough to outweigh any harm they might do to kung fu LARPers delicate egos and need to be special and "authentic".

[Quigga]

Bhassler with all due respect, you severely underestimate the amount of damage cults and sects can do. Indoctrination is a very real danger. The 'no ego' crowd especially presents a problem. But for some persons, it's their karma to have them as their teacher - for some only temporarily luckily, some will follow them even across the cliff edge metaphorically

[Bob]

One of the major forces driving certification is the healthcare industry e.g. hospitals, nursing homes, wellness centers etc. and its goes beyond taijiquan such as pilates, yoga etc..

That famous #1 global heart institute requires certification in just about all of the exercise programs they offer - I heard, but not verified, that one guy teaching taiji for 10 years or so at their wellness center had to end his teaching because he lacked certification.

Suspect this centers around liability/legal issues arising from potential injuries regardless of whether you sign a waiver or not.

[everything]

it makes sense. it reminds me of "data science" in the industries I've been working in. something "new" comes around, so who "certifies" people?

it probably has to start from tangential expertise - statisticians, universities with good math, computer science, and business fields, professional IT orgs, professional analytics orgs.

which makes me think for something like tai chi, you should have some "credibility" and/or "recognition" from:
- some kind of tai chi org (the Subject Matter Expertise of the art)
- some kind of hospital or physical therapy or other medical provider org
- some kind of studies that says doing X statistically gives Y benefit
- some kind of credibility in teaching the expert material
- some kind of credibility with the specific population (older adults)

at least theoretically, it sounds a bit complex. and that's just for a hypothetical case of teaching some older adults to have better balance. I don't even mean for martial arts or health qigong or something like that.

[Bhassler]

One of the major forces driving certification is the healthcare industry e.g. hospitals, nursing homes, wellness centers etc. and its goes beyond taijiquan such as pilates, yoga etc..

That famous #1 global heart institute requires certification in just about all of the exercise programs they offer - I heard, but not verified, that one guy teaching taiji for 10 years or so at their wellness center had to end his teaching because he lacked certification.

Suspect this centers around liability/legal issues arising from potential injuries regardless of whether you sign a waiver or not.

Yes, and also insurance for the teacher. Most independent contractors are required to carry personal liability insurance to work in a facility, and an insurance company wants some kind of documentation that you are qualified to teach what you say you are. Anyone working in the "for health" sector should also have a basic idea of contraindications for common conditions, be able to recognize sign of things like a heart attack or low blood sugar, be versed in CPR and know where to find the AEDs, etc. Mostly stuff that's not covered in the Green Emperor's Secret Classic of Chi Manipulation.