the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

marvin8 wrote:

origami_itto wrote:Let's zero in on the important part here.

It's a combination setup, not a wu wei response to changing conditions.
She threw a punch, made her dodge and threw a kick.
All Mann did as far as input and reaction was track her head for targeting.

Skill wise: Brasil lured, controlled (got reaction), listened, followed and issued when Mann was double weighted.

Call it what you like, what I see there is a punch to get her to go sideways immediately followed by a kick, it's a combo, fighters throw them constantly in the UFC. Most of them get blocked. This one got through because her opponent's eyes were closed and her guard, full stop.

It doesn't serve anything to belabor this point further, not trying to change anyone's mind about anything.

marvin8 wrote:That's what I implied, similar terms. However if taijiquan waits and considers them only neijin skills, it seems they are at a disadvantage

So let's address a couple things.
Taijiquan doesn't do anything. Human beings do things. Taijiquan is a set of exercises and principles intended to promote health and increase the ability of the practitioner to defend themselves.

There is nothing new under the sun. The strategies embodied in Taijiquan are not unique and are shared with a number of arts and combat disciplines.

johnwang wrote:

yeniseri wrote:1. All things being equal (skill), I step inside the opponents left and right leg, pull forward (feint) his upper body, hook his right leg with my right leg then raise his leg, then throw plus his momentum to pull away aiding the throw (attempted!,. He is more unbalanced than actual throw.
2. There is the kick throw! I do not kick forward but use instep to stop below or above knee (where I can/redirect and pull to diadonal where I can unbalance.
3. If there is opportunity outside then I use outside hooking. I will try to link when possible

Agree that both inner hook and outer hook all start from a front kick.

can't it be circular entry ?

not a front kick, but a karate outside crescent kick or very similar anyway. looks a bit more angular in execution
nice KO

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/vxIz6S1uunI

johnwang wrote:

marvin8 wrote: taijiquan waits and ...

You have to give before you can take. Your

- groin kick can set up your face punch.
- pull can set up your push.
- ...

MA is just that simple. Thanks for showing that clip.

but she didn't give, she only pretended to

of course, set ups can and do work great, fakes feints or baiting strikes. but sometimes simply countering does too.
you assume at some point 'the guy' is going to want to hit you. In or out the ring, otherwise what are you doing anyway...

cloudz wrote:

johnwang wrote:

yeniseri wrote:1. All things being equal (skill), I step inside the opponents left and right leg, pull forward (feint) his upper body, hook his right leg with my right leg then raise his leg, then throw plus his momentum to pull away aiding the throw (attempted!,. He is more unbalanced than actual throw.
2. There is the kick throw! I do not kick forward but use instep to stop below or above knee (where I can/redirect and pull to diadonal where I can unbalance.
3. If there is opportunity outside then I use outside hooking. I will try to link when possible

Agree that both inner hook and outer hook all start from a front kick.

can't it be circular entry ?

Looks like lotus leg to meeeee

origami_itto wrote:

marvin8 wrote:

origami_itto wrote:Let's zero in on the important part here.

It's a combination setup, not a wu wei response to changing conditions.
She threw a punch, made her dodge and threw a kick.
All Mann did as far as input and reaction was track her head for targeting.

Skill wise: Brasil lured, controlled (got reaction), listened, followed and issued when Mann was double weighted.

Call it what you like, what I see there is a punch to get her to go sideways immediately followed by a kick, it's a combo, fighters throw them constantly in the UFC. Most of them get blocked. This one got through because her opponent's eyes were closed and her guard, full stop.

It doesn't serve anything to belabor this point further, not trying to change anyone's mind about anything.

It is what it is. A sequence of skills ending with an instep kick (OP topic) issued to Mann's chin, which took under a second (around .2 seconds x 3 actions). What specifically are you arguing?

origami_itto wrote:

marvin8 wrote:

origami_itto wrote:I think in general with taijiquan in particular the strategy favors making contact before, for lack of a better word, striking. CMA at large I believe considers it bridging?

That's what I implied, similar terms. However if taijiquan waits and considers them only neijin skills, it seems they are at a disadvantage

So let's address a couple things.
Taijiquan doesn't do anything. Human beings do things. Taijiquan is a set of exercises and principles intended to promote health and increase the ability of the practitioner to defend themselves.

And per you, "Taijiquan's strategy favors making contact before striking."

origami_itto wrote:The strategies embodied in Taijiquan are not unique and are shared with a number of arts and combat disciplines.

Agree that there are similar strategies, which I showed above.

In Usman vs. Edwards 2, Edwards:

1. feints right jab, left cross to lure (yin) Usman to evade right (control/na) 2. senses (ting) for Usman to double weight 3. changes (hua) while Usman's weight is on the back foot 5. issues (fa) left roundhouse head kick KO with lower shin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ-ewfKLJpY&t=26m21s

marvin8 wrote:No, it's not. It's luring, listening for a reaction, sensing the double weight and issuing. Leon Edwards KOd Kamaru Usman with the same sequence. A sequence that is taught, understood, drilled and applied in a fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MKAcm6NfU4

yea the clip isn't super clear
could be kicking at an angle towards one leg then reversing to hook/sweep the other

but yea a kind of front kick, in that it looks pretty linear from what I can tell.
what I kinda meant was the entry doesn't have to be linear (I just assume a front kick is straight line/ forward in some variety) - to an inner or outer hook.

meh, this get's complicated !

When you train Yang Taiji "left right separate legs", which method do you use?

1. instep - upward curve?
2. toes - straight line?
3. Ball of the foot - downward curve?

My Guang Ping Yang taiji has jumping front kicks and crescent kicks. But I prefer Xingyi low kicks to the knee, shin, ankle, or foot. The lower one goes, the more it becomes more of a step than a kick. Think dragon stepping.

Taste of Death wrote:My Guang Ping Yang taiji has jumping front kicks and crescent kicks. But I prefer Xingyi low kicks to the knee, shin, ankle, or foot. The lower one goes, the more it becomes more of a step than a kick. Think dragon stepping.

Every step is a kick.

johnwang wrote:When you train Yang Taiji "left right separate legs", which method do you use?

1. instep - upward curve?
2. toes - straight line?
3. Ball of the foot - downward curve?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68KzMKn9rcA

1. What's your distance?
2. What's your goal (e.g., push, kick)?
3. What's your target?
4. What are the advantages of those 3 contact points?
6. What about heel, sole or shin?
7. Why limit to one method (contact point)?

It's been said, "There are only 2 types of punches, straight or curve." There are only 2 types of kicks curved or straight. Everything else is a variation (e.g., angles, direction). IOW, don't limit yourself, depends on where the opponent is.

Mizner, "The contact point is the hand. The whole body is the hand."

Discover Taiji
Oct 1, 2014


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vA1SjatiYA

marvin8 wrote:7. Why limit to one method (contact point)?

Because the starting point of your front kick is different.

If you intend to kick with your

- instep, you start your kick with toes pointing downward.
- toes, you start your kick with toes pointing forward.
- ball of the foot, you start your kick with toes pointing upward.

How you may start decide how you will end.

johnwang wrote:

marvin8 wrote:7. Why limit to one method (contact point)?

Because the starting point of your front kick is different.

If you intend to kick with your

- instep, you start your kick with toes pointing downward.
- toes, you start your kick with toes pointing forward.
- ball of the foot, you start your kick with toes pointing upward.

How you may start decide how you will end.

Why? You can start with toes pointing down, but end with your toes pointing forward or upward. Although, I did see in the Yang Taiji "left right separate legs," they started with toes pointing forward (after chambering the kick). And in the heel kick, they started with toes pointing up.

You may not want to follow your toes pointing rules, because:

1. that can telegraph where you want to kick.
2. you want to be relaxed until the point of contact.
3. you want a faster kick.
4. you want all your kicks to start out looking the same, but end up different.
5. you may want to feint a kick (e.g., question mark kick):

marvin8 wrote:Edit: Rose half steps with the lead leg and feints a jab, then pulls the lead leg back. This causes Weili to take a small step forward and rotate forward with her rear hand parry. As Weili steps forward, Rose simultaneously half steps forward, pendulum steps chambering her Taekwondo kick. (Rose's push/pull/push half step causes Weili to half step forward, weight the front foot, think about the jab and then the low leg kick and reverse her direction from the front foot to retreating on the back foot to avoid the fake low kick.) Rose fakes the low leg kick by constantly looking down, then finishes her Taekwondo kick to Weili's head knocking her down:

johnwang wrote:When you train Yang Taiji "left right separate legs", which method do you use...?

marvin8 wrote:7. Why limit to one method (contact point)?

Because the starting point of your front kick is different.

If you intend to kick with your

- instep, you start your kick with toes pointing downward.
- toes, you start your kick with toes pointing forward.
- ball of the foot, you start your kick with toes pointing upward.

How you may start decide how you will end.

Not understanding your answer. How does that limit you to training only one method? Taiji trains multiple front kick methods (contact points).

At 3:43 and 4:07, the starting point of his front kick is the same. He intends to kick with his

- toe: He starts his kick with toes pointing downward. After chambering, he kicks with toe.
- sole: He starts his kick with toes pointing downward. After chambering, he points his toes upward and kicks with sole.

,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzS9roXyb-Q&t=3m43s

Beside the downward front kick (kick with the ball of the foot) training exists in the long fist system,





it also exists in the white ape system (at 8.11 - 8.17).

Does this training exist in the Taiji, XingYi, or Bagua?