Training both Chen style and Yang style

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:56 am

Afa Wu Tunan comparing internal and external "styles," I'm almost certain he used the term "jia" or family. Though, there's the saying, All cmas are sons of the same mother.


Really, almost certain.


Hasn’t been my experience

Only going by what was written in the article

Of that I’m very certain that the word style was used.


Regarding the OP

Had once asked my teacher about Chen style

“ what are differences between taiji styles?”

He said “ The names of the taiji styles come from famous family members who were historical taiji teachers. Yang, Wu, and Sun, or places where taiji was developed Chen village, Guang Ping village.

When you understand taiji you can call what you do as you wish, you can name it xxx taiji” He laughed as he said this,
suddenly he became more quite, reflective, deep in thought and said

“there is only one taiji”

A true taiji Master, his answer was simple and direct.

My question at that time was an attempt to get Master Zhang, to explain why the Chen style of taiji seems to be so different from the others.

It was understood by those there that the Chen method was quite different leading to a different outcome not in line with the method we practiced...
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Steve James on Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:11 am

Yep, almost certain. I don't have the Chinese quote. But, waijia and neijia were the typical ways to describe external versus internal arts in his day. Of course, you could say it means "style" as we use it. I just don't think Chen, Yang, Wu, Fu, Gao, Sun, Hao, are the same style.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:27 am

Steve James wrote:Yep, almost certain. I don't have the Chinese quote. But, waijia and neijia were the typical ways to describe external versus internal arts in his day. Of course, you could say it means "style" as we use it. I just don't think Chen, Yang, Wu, Fu, Gao, Sun, Hao, are the same style.



seems confused

The point was whether Chen's method could be included as part of the taiji family of "styles" to be recognized as such.

Chen Fake answered, If the revered master Wu thinks it is external, then it is external!
We did not have this distinction at home. (Later on, in a remarkable reversal of logic, this statement was actually quoted by some as proof that Chen Style Taijiquan is not the original source of Taijiquan, since family member Chen Fake did not even acknowledge it as an internal style.)


Not a matter of better or whatever ,,,only noting the method used did not seem to fit into the "family" of styles noted as taiji

In the end very much depends on what one is looking for...and expected outcome...
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Bob on Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:32 am

Okay, now I will put myself in a bit more of a bind.

Scrolling down a bit from the previous paste:

"He begged his teacher for an explanation. Master Chen’s answer had nothing to do with either Chen or Wu styles: My ancestors invented it. My great grandfather practiced it [translator’s note: This refers to Chen Changxing, who taught Yang Luchan, the creator of Yang Style]. My father practiced it. I practice it now. We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!

Chen Fake was certainly not a philosopher. However one might appreciate the profound depth of his perspective. He saw the name as nothing more than a shallow symbol of the object. What Chen Fake learned and taught was Chen Style Taijiquan. The change of the name by others or the views of others will never affect what it is."


https://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/fro ... in-a-name/

Recall that according to Henning, Yang Luchan never referred to his martial arts as "taijiquan" but rather one of his students penned the name

So my interpretation of the above is the "style" that Yang Luchan taught was simply a variation on what he learned from the Chen Village - "Yang style taijiquan" is a variation on "Chen style taijiquan"- To me it is so evident in the flavor of what Du Yu Ze shows and I won't beat a dead horse here.

In fact again, 20 years back, one of the most respected martial artists I know - Chen taijiquan player (native Chinese) remarked to me privately that there is so much variation of the Chen styles and flavors that probably what Yang Chengfu taught comes closest to what the original practice of Chen style taijiquan looked like and style's like Wu are variations of Yang Luchan's practice.

Also I have some a reference to Yang Chengfu talking about longfist and taijiquan and flowing like a river - too tired to track down references today LOL
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:49 am

So my interpretation of the above is the "style" that Yang Luchan taught was simply a variation on what he learned from the Chen Village - "Yang style taijiquan" is a variation on "Chen style taijiquan"- To me it is so evident in the flavor of what Du Yu Ze shows and I won't beat a dead horse here.


Horses :)

The famed Wu Tunan (also known as the Northern Star of Taijiquan) was in charge.

A discussion came up, with regards to categorization of styles,leading to a great deal of controversy as to where Chen Style Taijiquan belonged.

Some suggested that it belonged to the External Division. At the time, the slow and gentle nature of Yang style Taijiquan was considered the standard of Taijiquan. What Chen Fake practiced certainly did not fall fall into this category.



It wasn't about the Yangs, claiming what they did was representative of Chen style asking the Chen's to be acknowledged as such.
The meeting was about whether the Chen style fit into a family of styles that came into their own. It should be noted at the time Chen style was not associated with
what was then known as "taiji" which the meeting was about..

"variation"

When something is very distinct relying on different methods then the originating method, it becomes something different to be recognized as such.

CMC's changes to the Yang-style form have never been officially recognised by the Yang family and (perhaps partly because of the continued popularity of Cheng's shortened form) his style is still a source of controversy among some t'ai chi ch'uan practitioners.


ImageImage

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/CMCvsYang.html

My own teacher did not refer to his method as "yang style" feeling it was too different from the "yang family" method even though his teacher more than likely
was a direct student of one of the yang family masters of the time.

He refereed to his own art simply as "taiji"

The OP post referenced compatible training methods....kinda depends on the outcome one is seeking...
Not all roads lead to the "Rome" one might be looking for..

Have met many in the evolution of their understanding come to the conclusion that what they had practice even if skilled at it,
was not in line with what they felt taiji was about..

seems to be very common story for some once a certain level of understanding is reached.

Master Wang competed regularly in push hands events in Taiwan, with both national and international participants. He was push hands champion for several years winning international competitions. However, he felt discouraged because so much physical force and technique was required to defeat an opponent.

He had read the tai chi classics which talked about softness and "four ounces moving a thousand pounds", but this was not evident in tai chi push hands in present use. Only after meeting Grandmaster Huang did he realize that soft power could be achieved. He studied with Huang, when he visited Taiwan and realized he had to give up his prior emphasis on strength and technique.

https://www.searchcentertaichi.com/aboutMHW.html



anyway....might take awhile for some to reach a point were they understand how really different the practices are...
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Appledog on Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:53 am

windwalker wrote:... He said “ The names of the taiji styles come from famous family members who were historical taiji teachers. Yang, Wu, and Sun, or places where taiji was developed Chen village, Guang Ping village. ... When you understand taiji you can call what you do as you wish, you can name it xxx taiji” He laughed as he said this, suddenly he became more quite, reflective, deep in thought and said “there is only one taiji”.
...(yet)... It was understood by those there that the Chen method was quite different leading to a different outcome not in line with the method we practiced...


windwalker wrote:The point was whether Chen's method could be included as part of the taiji family of "styles" to be recognized as such.

Chen Fake answered, If the revered master Wu thinks it is external, then it is external! We did not have this distinction at home.
... In the end very much depends on what one is looking for...and expected outcome...


windwalker wrote:
A discussion came up, with regards to categorization of styles,leading to a great deal of controversy as to where Chen Style Taijiquan belonged. ... What Chen Fake practiced certainly did not fall fall into this category. (emphasis mine -Appledog)


...When something is very distinct relying on different methods then the originating method, it becomes something different to be recognized as such.

...He had read the tai chi classics which talked about softness and "four ounces moving a thousand pounds",
...anyway....might take awhile for some to reach a point were they understand how really different the practices are...


Those outside of a verifiable lineage continually discuss and elaborate over these points. However, it is a point of order taught to beginners (i.e. it does not require a great deal of skill to understand) that there is only one family of taiji and it all has the same shenfa. This is soley because they lack the conviction of a dashi which to trust at a beginner level to guide their future progress. Without such guidance one depends soley on the teacher's ability to teach and not on their skill level. This is why people have such a hard time learning tai chi. They look for skill and not teaching ability (lineage). They frequently confuse the two. In reality the two have nothing in common with each other.

What you see in the beginning are different focuses and interpretations which only give rise to different versions (or styles) if one ends halfway. At the midpoint, all the styles begin to converge due to the unified practice of push hands (and etc -- ex. weapons) and crosstraining. Which, being honest, has to be done these days because of the developments over the last 100 years. That's something I can touch on later. For now I am just pointing out that tai chi is a moving target. You can never learn what it was like 100 years ago. It changed. At the top level. So it's different today (for reasons).

Thus we see that the main differences are causes by localized communities which emphasize certain methods or develop certain ticks within their group, and because they don't go outside their group they reach the level of big fish in a small pond. If you wish to cure this about yourself, I would suggest learning and practicing the three second most common styles (Wu, Sun and Chen) and forgetting about Yang Chengfu form and to go push hands freely with anyone. Do you really believe that there is something in Yang that is not in Wu, Sun and Chen? I recommend this especially because a second opinion is often the key people need to break through.

It is fair that when learning, one expects to be presented with the same methodology that informed the teacher's experience. If one is given a different road to follow by their teacher, they will end up in a different place. Where this place is, is not dependant on the skill of the teacher but by the teaching methodology he uses. Was one taught the method of teaching, or does one make it up as he goes along and hope that skill is transmitted -- in those cases, I suppose, where he is not holding back?

One chooses the teacher, not the art. If you choose the art you disrespect the teacher.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:45 am

At the midpoint, all the styles begin to converge due to the unified practice of push hands (and etc -- ex. weapons) and crosstraining. Which, being honest, has to be done these days because of the developments over the last 100 years.

That's something I can touch on later. For now I am just pointing out that tai chi is a moving target.
You can never learn what it was like 100 years ago.
It changed. At the top level. So it's different today (for reasons).


They don't. ;D

Do agree that depending on level one might feel they do :)

What "you" can touch on is only through your own experience.

Others may have different..

One can learn from teaches very close the beginning who learned directly from some of the teachers of the time or their students, to get an idea of how things were trained back then or those that have the skill that is written about of past masters....making the stories of old real and understandable...

as they are for me :)
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Appledog on Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:29 pm

windwalker wrote:
At the midpoint, all the styles begin to converge due to the unified practice of push hands (and etc -- ex. weapons) and crosstraining. Which, being honest, has to be done these days because of the developments over the last 100 years.

That's something I can touch on later. For now I am just pointing out that tai chi is a moving target.
You can never learn what it was like 100 years ago.
It changed. At the top level. So it's different today (for reasons).


They don't. ;D


If they don't then it's as I said. The problem is we're dealing with what amounts to a hypothetical situation; top level martial arts that few on this forum will get a chance to meet let alone ever achieve. From an interview with Gao Ji Wu; we read

Gao explained that his grandfather was a close disciple of the Yin Fu style of bagua. Likewise, his father was also an expert in hsing-i, Yang Style tai chi and the Da Cheng Chuan (I-Chuan) of Wang Xian Zai, who created the eight standing postures system.

Gao’s family’s Gao Style Bagua combines all four forms. It emphasizes standing postures, forms and fighting applications, especially the switching hands of the single palm change, which I Chuan also favors.

Gao considers his prime responsibility is to help preserve this aspect of Chinese culture—bagua and the internal martial arts—for future generations. This is a personal perspective I also share and the primary reason I created the Bagua Mastery Program over the past decade. Bagua is a unique cultural treasure of China, spanning thousands of years in development that has tremendous health, martial and meditation applications.


This is in fact what is going on and has been going on at the "top level" for quite some time; There are different groups, different social circles in martial arts, which are much much more important than styles or even skill levels. For example let's take a look at Yang style in and around beijing in the 50s and 60s. You have players like Liu Gaoming knew, Niu Chunming, Li Tian Qi, Li Jingwu, as well as all the usual suspects. Most of which knew each other and some who crosstrained in Bagua and vice versa. There was a community. Now if someone suddenly gained a lot of skill in that community or if whatever, then word would get around fast. This isn't something immediately obvious to us here in the west today but we are talking about real people who existed and whose memories have been passed down to us here, today (or not, as the case may be, but the point is, they are gone but not forgotten). This is our cultural heritage. I mean, just look at all the people nearby. Sun Jianyun, Chen Zhaokui, Tian Zhaoling, Wang Peisheng, the list goes on. To assume that someone developed in isolation or came up with anything new is a fairytale. It's all the same, all the top masters trained with each other. No man is an island.

windwalker wrote:One can learn from teaches very close the beginning who learned directly from some of the teachers of the time or their students, to get an idea of how things were trained back then or those that have the skill that is written about of past masters....making the stories of old real and understandable...

as they are for me :)


Well I'm not saying anything about you, I'm just saying that there is a great amount of crossover once you reach a certain point, much more than is commonly expected. We don't often get to the level where that becomes important, but I believe that knowledge can be used to help us stop fretting over vagaries and get back down to some honest to goodness training :)
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:02 pm

I have met both
Those that can fight and those that can pass it on
I have been lucky enough to meet some who are both
So don’t think they are not out there
Yang said those are those you teach in the morning and it is gone by afternoon
It is not weather the teacher has it but weather the student can grasp it
Each teacher has a least some of it
The duty is yours and the sun is disappearing into the night and may not raise again
Don’t waste your time following false trails
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:04 pm

Well I'm not saying anything about you, I'm just saying that there is a great amount of crossover once you reach a certain point, much more than is commonly expected.

We don't often get to the level where that becomes important, but I believe that knowledge can be used to help us stop fretting over vagaries and get back down to some honest to goodness training :)


Good to know it’s not about me

In my practice and some of those I work with many having tens of years of experience of practice.
The beginning point, starting point is very important.

It’s very hard to change or help those who practice for a while thinking they would reach their intended point, not understanding the methods they use wouldn’t lead them there.

I would almost say that there really is no crossover, but one would have to have a certain type of experience or understanding to know this.

The problem lies not with the teacher or method,
but with those not having clarity of what they seek.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:01 pm

To assume that someone developed in isolation or came up with anything new is a fairytale.

It's all the same, all the top masters trained with each other. No man is an island.


;D it's not all the same.


Some teachers were well known...As the teacher of my teacher was
but asked my teacher never to mention him , one of the 3 conditions he held my teacher to in agreeing to teach him..


My teacher sought anonymity, before, during and after the cultural revolution
known among those of his time, who respecting his wishes to remain private kept it so..

He did know some of The top people of his day.
With some of their students coming to train with him and his group later on.

Anyway,,,, :)

Would not agree that there is or are cross over points
Nor that what appear to be different methods reach the same point...

Would agree the deeper ones practice is, the more obvious this should be...


some words

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan

一般理解,所謂勁兒,是把本身的神、意、氣集中到一點上,再把這個點運用到某個姿勢上
去。經過長期的鍛煉以後,就會逐漸擴大增長起來,變成一種力。這種力是經過鍛煉取得的,
是後天之拙力。這種力形式大、動量滯、變換遲、動的去路直,在技擊方面用起來,因身形動
作大,運動量較強,因此影響內氣的波動,易於浮躁。這近於長拳的練法和要求。

Google translate

It is generally understood that the so-called jin refers to concentrating one's own spirit, intention, and energy on one point, and then applying this point to a certain posture. After long-term exercise, it will gradually expand and grow, becoming a kind of force. This kind of power is acquired through training, and it is an acquired clumsy power.
This kind of force has a large form, sluggish momentum, slow transformation, and straight movement.
It is used in martial arts. Because of the large body shape and strong movement,
it affects the fluctuation of internal qi and is easy to be impetuous.
This is close to the practice and requirements of Changquan.

初練太極拳的人覺得太極拳的練法與上面的練法相似,其實不然。如果按照太極拳的理論要求
,經過一段時間的鍛煉,逐漸把理論與姿勢結合起來,就會很明顯地感覺出來,上面的練法和
要求是與太極拳不同的。練習太極拳的要求,是把本身的神、意、氣化合歸一,融合在一起,
形成一種輕靈圓活之勁兒。這種勁兒是以氣、意混之為主。它的本質是氣,對它的要求是空、
虛、散,而不是集聚的。這就是太極勁兒,又叫做先天勁兒。

People who are new to Taijiquan think that the practice of Taijiquan is similar to the above practice, but it is not. If you follow the theoretical requirements of Taijiquan, after a period of training, and gradually combine the theory with posture, you will clearly feel that the above practice methods and requirements are different from Taijiquan.

The requirement of practicing Taijiquan is to unify and integrate one's own spirit, mind and qi into one, forming a kind of light, round and lively energy.
This kind of energy is mainly based on the mixture of qi and meaning. Its essence is qi, and its requirements are emptiness, emptiness, and dispersal, rather than gathering.
This is Tai Chi Jin, also known as Innate Jin.

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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Appledog on Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:25 am

windwalker wrote:
To assume that someone developed in isolation or came up with anything new is a fairytale.

It's all the same, all the top masters trained with each other. No man is an island.


;D it's not all the same.


;D Well maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Somethings appear different but are the same, and some things appear the same but are different. Let us by proxy examine the curious case of Zhang Yongliang whom you brought up there; lets examine it by looking first at the Li Jingwu story.

windwalker wrote:Some teachers were well known...As the teacher of my teacher was
but asked my teacher never to mention him , one of the 3 conditions he held my teacher to in agreeing to teach him..

My teacher sought anonymity, before, during and after the cultural revolution
known among those of his time, who respecting his wishes to remain private kept it so..

He did know some of The top people of his day.
With some of their students coming to train with him and his group later on.


The funny thing is how consistent that is with the society at the time. SO the Li Jingwu story is like this. At an early age he practiced a longfist kind of system, mizong taizu changquan, but stopped to go into the family business near Beijing. Later on he had to stop because he hurt his leg. As a martial arts afficionado he became interested in Baguazhang but was told by his baguazhang teacher to go learn Taijiquan. He ended up learning from Yang Yuting, as well as Wu Jianquan, Yang Chengfu, Chen FaKe and others. He eventually became one of the 5 tiger generals of tai chi in beijing, also among them Wang Peisheng. Li Jingwu was well-acknowledged for his neijing -- there's no issue here with his skill or development. I present his story only to point out that it is eerily similar to Zhang Yongnian's story. At a young age he learned martial arts for several years, then left it to work on the family business near Beijing. He eventually hurt his leg and took up Bagua (for 17 years). Then, essentially finding himself in the exact same community as "mystery teacher", in fact, practicing in the same park with all the other aforementioned people, he met his taiji teacher.

Now, it is a point which shouldn't need to be made since you made it; "known among those of his time, ... He did know some of The top people of his day. " this is without question. Such a master would have known and practiced with at least occasionally all of the other people in his social circle. In fact, I would point out that all things being equal it is very likely we know who this person is, only that we cannot identify him and "make the link" that he is Zhang Yongliang's teacher.

At this point the question becomes, why. It is not because there was no culture of crosstraining among the players in mention. It is also not because there was anything significantly different being taught or learned. In fact Wang Yongquan as you quote below presents his material as Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan. It is not a matter of dispute. And he states as point of fact what I mentioned earlier, there remain massive similarities to the parent arts in northern shaolin; "This is close to the practice and requirements of Changquan." -- to the point where many movements in Yang style come from changquan and not from chen style or a version of it. This even this is nothing special; Wu Jianquan put some shuaijiao into wu style that isnt in chen or even yang style. Of course there are differences (as he points out the practical requirements are different) all I am pointing out is that what is being presented here, is really nothing special compared to any other school of tai chi.

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan


There isn't anything mysterious which isn't found elsewhere; else it is not a part of what is found elsewhere, and within this lies the conundrum. Zhang Yongliang has several identifiable autographs in his form and push hands that help us identify exactly what it is he knows and what it is he practices. Or at least to place him in the same park as (ex. Li Jingwu and many others -- see below). Hand and foot go together; movement and theory go together; there exist both form videos and push hands videos of him. As suspected he is a middle of the road player. Nothing special. Kind of like you and me -- not really a top master. Just another guy. Yes, he is doing tai chi. That isn't a suprise though.

So what conclusion may we draw from all of this?

People who end up at wildly different places in their tai chi journey find themselves in such places solely because of two reasons; the intentional reason of representing a style (ex. if it isn't square step, it's not wu style!!) or because of the same reason but unintentional -- their bodies have not been pulled into the correct natural shape by letting go and submitting to nature.

Some of the people Li Jingwu trained with were known for skills in lin kong jing many considered magical. One such person was known to be able to point at a person and make them collapse (we're talking about trained martial artists here). It is aside these people, in the very same park, that these legendary figures and also that Zhang Yongliang and his teacher trained tai chi. With this knowledge, a lot of the mystery is removed and one can see that it's all really the same family and that if one works hard their dreams can be realized.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:26 am

So what conclusion may we draw from all of this?


You write a lot ;D

Whether its from experience or not hard to say..without seeing any of your work...

My point in mentioning my last taiji teacher, was that it's part of my experience, he a reflection what I felt was
the closest representation of what is written in the classics that many "write" about but go crazy when skill sets are viewed. :)


small story : :)

Had brought a copy of the classics written in Chinese and English to the practice feeling I could use them as discussion
points from which to ask or clear up questions I had.

He looked at it smiled, and gave it back to me saying...

"its not really correct, will lead you in the wrong direction, that one should gain understanding through practice. "


Had thought maybe I was mistaken in understanding what he said, attempted to use it a couple of times, each time he gave it back to me laughing
it was funny :)

Others can make their own minds on this, just relating what was told to me, something I follow...

Understanding gained through practice



The history is interesting, in that it helps in understanding the beginning point of a practice, and maybe the view point of a teacher.


The OP had asked about training Chen style and Yang style concurrent training. In my teachers group we had Chen stylist with many yrs of practice among others stylist from different practices. They all had to drop what they knew in order to arrive at a different understanding...not asked to directly, those that did not that I knew in most cases couldn't get the skill sets they found interesting because it...

In my own case, understanding what I was looking for, dropped everything else to delve into this practice.

Was asked at one time if I had practiced Chen style due to my movement.

Never have, don't care much for it, looks and seems like some of the other CMA arts I've either practiced or know of. Realized from this comment I needed to examine my own movement, understand it and make changes as needed.


In my own path I had the good fortune to practice with / learn from direct students of public historical teachers allowing me to get a feel of the work from those closest to the source, helping me in understanding / clarifying what I was seeking..


It is also not because there was anything significantly different being taught or learned.

In fact Wang Yongquan as you quote below presents his material as Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.
It is not a matter of dispute. And he states as point of fact what I mentioned earlier, there remain massive similarities to the parent arts in northern shaolin; "This is close to the practice and requirements of Changquan." -- to the point where many movements in Yang style come from changquan and not from chen style or a version of it.

This even this is nothing special; Wu Jianquan put some shuaijiao into wu style that isnt in chen or even yang style. Of course there are differences (as he points out the practical requirements are different) all I am pointing out is that what is being presented here, is really nothing special compared to any other school of tai chi.


Wouldn't agree from "experience" although it might seem so from the outside by those
writing from a comparative historical narrative

The Tung syle is quite different then the CMC style, the CMC is more in line with my practice now but also different...

Some of the people Li Jingwu trained with were known for skills in lin kong jing many considered magical. One such person was known to be able to point at a person and make them collapse (we're talking about trained martial artists here). It is aside these people, in the very same park, that these legendary figures and also that Zhang Yongliang and his teacher trained tai chi. With this knowledge, a lot of the mystery is removed and one can see that it's all really the same family and that if one works hard their dreams can be realized.


Carful about the "kong jin" ;D

You mentioned the writings I use by Wang Yongquan, his method very close to what we practiced, is quite different
from other Yang family "stylist" that I've met studying directly under some of the present "yang family members" some of them
having many yrs of practice....

back to the OP. :) .

Is it a good idea to study Yang style and Chen style at the same time

I would say depends on one's level and what they are looking for...

Don't feel they'er compatible practices although among some of the Chen lines outside of what seems to be the "family practice"
they may be quite similar, depending on what one is looking for it may not help in getting were ever "there" is for ones practice.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:14 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:37 am

"their bodies have not been pulled into the correct natural shape by letting go and submitting to nature."

This is one of the most relevant comments on this thread thus far, imo. Many TCC practitioners in every style have learned one or more form sets, as well as a variety of other training material, but have never fully imbedded the principles of the art into their practice in a way which would allow their art to be effectively developed and cultivated in body, mind and spirit, much less effectively expressed as a practical fighting method.

In order for TCC of any style to really reveal itself to us through the practice, it is usually necessary to let go of our assumptions and opinions regarding it.
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:44 am

Doc Stier wrote:"their bodies have not been pulled into the correct natural shape by letting go and submitting to nature."

This is one of the most relevant comments on this thread thus far, imo. Many TCC practitioners in every style have learned one or more form sets, as well as a variety of other training material, but have never fully imbedded the principles of the art into their practice in a way which would allow their art to be effectively developed and cultivated in body, mind and spirit, much less effectively expressed as a practical fighting method.

In order for TCC of any style to really reveal itself to us through the practice, it is usually necessary to let go of our assumptions and opinions regarding it.


Isn't what you just wrote an "opinion" of others practices .... :-\
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